Questions on Overescalation/validhunting

Similar to another thread I made, this is something that has been bugging me for a while. I also don’t say this as a new player, this has been something I’ve struggled to properly approach for years.

Base Understanding

To start, from what info I’ve got, normal player intervention against antagonists is primarily centered around validhunting/powergaming, escalation policy, and roleplay.

Powergaming/Validhunting

The issue regarding powergaming/validhunting (on approaching antags) revolves around chasing antagonists across the station as a crewmember or directly intervening in a dangerous situation when it isn’t sensible/appropriate to do so.

Escalation Policy

There are multiple connections with escalation policy referenced in No Self-Antaging. It describes the process players should take in IC conflicts. Importantly, it discusses how to intervene in breaking up fights, such as if an antagonist attacks a coworker.

Breaking up a Fight: If you witness a conflict in progress or wish to come to the aid of a co-worker, you may follow normal escalation to do so by attempting to shove players apart. You may not take sides in a fight if you do not understand the context for it unless one of the players chooses to intentionally escalates against you.

There is also the escalation chart detailing station(crew) responses against different factions/antags. Although I’m still very confused on how that fits in all of this.

Escalation Chart Elaboration

Station response states that “Lavaland” or “Hostile” threats still adhere to validhunting rules. This may be confusing because I’ve heard different interpretations, even by staff. But from what I understand, “Lavaland” or “Hostile” threats can be lethally attacked in something like a self-defense situation or you’re intervening in one attacking a coworker. Although I’ve heard it’s fine-ish to lethally intervene in defense of a coworker against…anyone (except security/maybe command? as per Security Clause).

Roleplay

I’ve also read various ways that roleplay or the lack thereof can influence these interactions. I’ve seen recent ongoing player reports on sec officers for being too hasty or attacking in RP stick-ups. I don’t know how valid that will be but I’ve read statements stating that as bad RP, alongside shoving an antag who’s roleplaying.

Challenges to my Understanding

From what I am trying my best to believe, all this is just supposed to encourage a roleplay environment and mitigate bad behavior that unfairly ruins other’s (antag’s) rounds. That playing in good faith will generally land you out of trouble. But I just have such a sinking feeling when I think about this.

Because I see the contradictions and conflicts between these statements at times and their effects on those around me. I’ve read situations where a player follows escalation policy in intervention with shoving , gets charged for validhunting, is uncharged from validhunting, but the reason essentially remains the same (getting in a dangerous situation). If you properly follow escalation-intervention policy, you’re damned for unrealistically shoving a dangerous individual, if you use a lethal weapon, you’re damned for whacking a valid. I understand that the primary solution is to not intervene out of self-preservation, but letting another player die because security is absent and the attacker has a weapon isn’t just not winning to me, it just…doesn’t seem fun to me. It sucks that when you’re being murdered, shoving may even be off-limits to your potential saviors.

I understand that in many cases, these incidents don’t become an issue and naturally flow with the round. But because of the nature of player reports, players can continually report others for edge cases like this and it’s bound to the whims of differing staff interpretations of differing circumstances. Likewise, due to the nature of the game (dynamic), players are constantly faced with conflict and have to deal with it in various high-stress situations. Even as the observer gamer I am, I remember a time I shoved someone pointing a gun at someone else as a free golem. I was next to them when it happened but because of the dynamic nature of admin responses, if that was turned into a player report, I truly don’t know what would have happened.

Ultimately, this isn’t just a vent or critique, this is how I currently understand over-escalation/valid hunting is being approached. I understand that the current approach has resulted from years of discussion and events I can’t even begin to fathom, just like naming conventions or whatnot. For instance, I read about the sentiment against shoving players committing a stick-up from Discord /discussions revolving around someone shoving “in the most optimal way” to save another player being attacked by an energy bow. I didn’t even know shoving or tabling was off-limits for some staff at that point, I’m sure there is much more I’m ignorant to.

Questions (Read Previous Material first)

So, is there something I missed? Can any staff or veterans advise me on how to deal with this? How am I supposed to not just “be safe”, but enjoy the server like this? I understand that punishments differ from case by case and staff by staff, but with what I’ve read, how can that be reassurance?

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I find this one of the reasons I avoid most job roles that could involve a layer of responsibility. E.g., Exploration, Mining, security in general.

I’ve dabbled in detective to learn Sec but I’m afraid because I’m not knowledgeble enough I’d be labeled “Shitsec” for either RPing and not arresting, or batong the valid.

I, personally, think your discussion was really well worded and cited through various reports, bans and discord discussions. I too would really like to know more surrounding it, if possible!

Sidenote; write my masters thesis for me, you’re good

For what it’s worth I can at least offer a look into how i handled this while I was an admin, but it’s worth noting that you covered the biggest part… the response to overescalation is going to vary as per admin due to different people viewing something in different ways. Not sure this will help but here we go

Any time i was asked to handle a situation of overescalation the first thing i looked at was the situation itself, lets discuss the situation of shoving an antag with a gun.

In most cases as a nonantag you are just a normal civilian, and if you have sec then your goal should be to escape and not engage, but sometimes some fighting is necessary to get away. The important thing is that the player is making the attempt to escape, it only became a problem to me if the players response was to kill the antag, rather than shove and run.

Or course though, i was the no pop admin, meaning we had no security ever, in this case I looked at things differently. If an antag declares the station under syndicate control, or has comitted multiple acts od violence and proven to be dangerous, it never felt right for the crew to just sit back and accept it. As long as they roleplayed their way into it I always thought it acceptable for the crew to do some kind of militia to defend themselves, or at least have something nearby for themselves, as long as they weren’t actively trying to hunt down the antag

Basically in short, the way i viewed overescalation really came down to if it was roleplayed out, or if the player just wanted to make an excuse to valid hunt. Theres no easy answer anyone can give you because every admin is a unique person with their own views. What looks like good rp to one admin could be jumping the gun to another. If you want my advice the secret to everything is really just don’t let it get to you, if you ever overescalate and you get bwoinked, be polite in the ticket. Dont argue, let the admin explain where you went wrong, explain your side, accept something was wrong and let it go, you’re honestly not very likely to get a harsh punishment if youre just kind and respectful. And if you honestly dont think you did anything wrong, the ticket isn’t the right place to argue it, bring it here and debate it here but above all, just stay respectful.

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Another question would be can any of these regulations be circumvented when there’s no sec or lowpop?

Yes, but no. Pretending you can play the game normally when there is 4 people on and one is an antag trying to get ALL the power gaming gear on the entire station with ZERO consequences is lame as fuck. Despite this, admins will still be very strict with the victim literally being cyber bullied.

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