WhyIsCauciliusTaken wrongfully banned me

Ban Appeals Game Ban Appeals
1

CKEY:

WhyIsCauciliusTaken

Both

Sage

Global

Ban Length: 1 day

Ban Date 4/23/2020

15008

Killing over "hearsay"

He didn’t read my response properly and as I was typing out what actually happened he banned me without leaving me enough time to finish typing it.

**Now I’ve got to type the entire thing all over again.

So the chemist made me some morphine earlier so I could use my syringe gun for self-defense or getting traitors
Later, someone yells that the chemist is attacking her, but DESPITE that when I find the chemist, I try hitting the chemist because he is the aggressor, which is the right thing to do.
I miss, but they both stop after a few seconds when I tell them to.
I tell them to both come with me to security and we will both hear what they have to say.
They don’t come, but instead tell me what happened according to them.
The girl says that he’s trying to murder her, but the chemists says is that she is an accomplice in a murder and that she can’t come so security because she’s wanted herself (this was probably an assumption).

The girl then, in all her infinite wisdom, decides to not defend herself, but RUN!
This, of course, like any reasonable person thinks, is incredibly suspicious. Why would you run if you’re innocent? There was even place for civil discourse!
So I chase after her and then I shoot 2 syringes full of morphine into to subdue her non lethally.
She runs out of the airlock, making me think that she is a changeling, because changelings can survive in space with fleshmend.
She ran back in and when she fell asleep, I call security with the chemist by my side, but they never came.

A minute later, someone else runs up to the sleeping suspect and drags her away into maintenance, hitting me once with her hatchet.
Now THIS is VERY suspicious. Why would someone come to the chapel and instantly try to take her from us? It’s not like she had to act quickly, we were standing next to the body, talking to each other, she could have asked why there was a body there like I had asked the bartender.
So I followed her into maintenance and take her hatchet from her and bash her in the head with it a few times (I ran out of morphine).

They weren’t reviving or healing, so I thought they must be blood brother, not changelings, which is seen in the chat logs where I say that to the chemist, although without an explanation.
I recall there being said that there was no security, so instead of having 2 blood brothers possibly kill people and hijack the shuttle, I murder and space them since it’s the second best thing to do.

Even if they weren’t traitors, they still were the ones at fault for their own death. They had all the chance in the world to just talk and ask and defend themselves, but they didn’t.
I was typing this all out a second time more clearly when I got banned without being able to finish it.
You may be thinking; “Well, he probably thought that he was ignoring you.” And you may be right, but if he was thinking that then that would be rather silly of him since my first response was a complete box full of text and took even longer to write, so he should have known that I take a long time to respond.

So I wasn’t killing over hearsay, I was killing for very a legitimate reason and I have listed the events leading up and enforcing to that reason (that there was no security) above

**

1 Like
2

Bump …a

3

Couple of things here. First of all, bottles of morphine are in the Nanomed Plus. No need to bug chemistry. Secondly, tell the admin “It’s a long story” or something so they don’t assume you’ve finished explaining yourself.

More importantly, you were powergaming and validhunting on Sage. Loading a syringe gun with morphine “for self-defense or getting traitors” has explicitly been defined as powergaming: The black flag's ban Appel.

The person you shot with morphine would have been a bit suspicious for running off after being accused, but the second person might have been trying to rescue a unconscious person from someone who had been called out as attacking someone else.

They were not at fault for their deaths. You “murdered and spaced” two unconscious people -one bleeding out in crit, the other shot with enough morphine to addict- because you were reasonably confident they were antags. This wasn’t in self-defense, as they posed no threat to you. Killing according to validity is only permissible on Golden- on Sage it doesn’t apply. A relevant rule from Sage is:
“Use reasonable self-defense; subdue, but do not try to revenge-kill, any assailants.”: You subdued, then killed people who barely attacked you.

Look over the rules, try and understand why killing people and then removing them from the round by spacing their corpses isn’t a good idea.

4

Not an administrator, but just something I personally think seem awkward.

I assume this means you got banned on Sage.

What job were you? Was it your job to get traitors? If not, that comes into conflict with the following rule on Sage-

Do not collect dangerous items, weapons, or tools “just in case”. Do not wear a hardsuit, riot suit, or similar bulky/uncomfortable armor for the entire round.

It appears somebody beat me to replying, but I suggest you sharpen the details there. Also it might be a good idea to specify your ckey. And this doesn’t even include the further aspects regarding the murderboning, which was covered more in detail above.

Also, bumping something only three hours it was made seems rather impatient. They’ll get to it when they get to it.

5

With the powergaming I agree then. I was thinking that powergaming fell under getting powerful stuff you don’t have access to, but I was a medical doctor. I don’t read other people’s bans so I didn’t really knew that preloading a syringe gun was powergaming and a syringe gun seems just like a niche weapon to me. Powergaming to me is flashing the HoP at round start and taking his ID, but I guess I misunderstood that.

As I’m reading the rules I see that there is NO rule against “powergaming”, there is not even a definition of it. Not even under rule 8 with the link poster is there any mention of it. That explains my lack of knowledge of it and I can’t be blamed for it.

Regardless, I was still in the right.
I didn’t shoot the person with morphine before she ran off, it was only after she ran off and didn’t comply, note that we were all standing still and the attack had stopped. The person who tried to “rescue” that person had all the time to firstly ASK why there was an unconscious body by us. We weren’t actively attacking that body, yet she charged and swung at me with a hatchet and tried dragging the body into maint.
I did not intend to kill these people before I subdued them, only after I subdued them I remembered there was no security. I fully and rightfully believed them to be conspirators and so had to execute them without a means of containing them.
There. Was. No. Other. Way.

And lastly, I was NOT validhunting. I never sought to kill a player, in fact, I tried to solve the conflict before that idiot girl ran off without defending herself with a counter argument. How can you call this validhunting when it was obvious she was an antag? I didn’t kill her for the sake of killing her, I killed her so we won’t get blown up.

6

https://beestation13.com/rules?server=bs_sage
You can be blamed for ignorance.

You weren’t a security member, it was not your job to save the day and eliminate the antagonists. It was your job to be a medical doctor. Lack of security is relatively irrelevant to whether that allows you to ‘execute’ someone so ‘we won’t get blown up’. The only person you needed to save was yourself. If she left you alone, you should’ve left her alone.

7

You’re reading the LRP rules. There’s a button at the top of the rules page to switch to the MRP (Sage) ruleset. Rule 9, no powergaming. Also, ignorance is not an excuse.

The two people were behaving suspiciously, and you can crit or even kill people in self-defense or to subdue, but you are obligated to heal them or at least bring them to medbay or you will be held responsible for removing them from the round. You subdued them, then murdered them, then spaced them to prevent revival.

Only the Captain -or the highest authority on the station- can authorize executions, and you haven’t mentioned seeking permission before doing so.

There was. You could (and should) have medipenned and bandaged the guy you hatcheted, then dragged them both to medbay, put them in straitjackets or cuffs to clear the confusion up.

You threw two helpless people out an airlock.

See what Tennessee116 said for more on why you shouldn’t have done this.

8

No no no, there wasn’t just a lack of security, there was NO security. The problem is what lies in the future. She wouldn’t have left me alone if her goal was to blow up the shuttle. You can’t say everything will be ok if she doesn’t attack me NOW, she surely would have later when she brings on a hellbomb in the shuttle.

9

Oh, and I COMPLETELY agree with you it’s not my job, but this was just too much of a threat, there was no one to DO the security job. I even called for security first

10

You two can be the only people on the god damn station. You are not security, it is not your job to hunt down antagonists. What do you not understand?

11

Lack of security and no security are the same thing. Regardless, you can’t go vigilante on Sage.

12

What do you mean??? I’m not going to jeopardize my life because I’m not security! If I’m the only person on e station, and I’m certain that that person is a traitor, I WILL hunt that person down. That person is an immediate threat to the station and endangers MY work. If it endangers MY work and no one else is there to help then I need to stop it. It’s only logical to prioritize disabling a maniac who will probably murder me in the end or before that even.

13

Then play on LRP. You are expected to play a sane and competent doctor. The sane don’t kill people that endanger their work. The competent do their job instead of chasing the tails of possible bad guys. A doctor follows the Hippocratic Oath and doesn’t go around murdering people for the good of it. Even if it wasn’t through hearsay, you obviously validhunted cause you believed that they were a threat to a station as an antagonist, so you tried murdering them. That is literally the definition.

14

They were bad guys and I wasn’t valid hunting
Valid hunting is, according to the rules, seeking or bating players to kill in validity. I did not seek or baited anyone.
There were no injured people and the ones that were dead were not able to be revived, so my job was done for the time being. A Hippocratic Oath doesn’t program me to do no harm, or else doctors would be permanently paxed.
I had to assume the role of a security officer. I know it’s not proper, but is it proper for a station to have no security officer, or even no captain? It is not and so the situation needed to be dealt with in an unusual way.

15

I had to, it would have been worse if I hadn’t. It would have been completely unrealistic to let that person get away.

16

Alright, I guess I have to explain step by step why this is bad.

  1. You hear that the chemist assaulted someone, so you immediately go to assault the chemist. This is where you fucked up primarily. It was not, is not, and will not ever be your job, as a medical doctor, to chase assaulter and actively assault them. You are putting your life, which you seemed to care so much about, in danger.

  2. You chase the girl, who I assume is the one who was attacked by the chemist, because she runs away from you, refusing to take place in your make-believe courtroom. You are in no way entitled to chase her like a bounty hunter because she ran. You could’ve left the situation here and probably wouldn’t have been banned. Make people aware of the situation instead of “ung bung I murder for good of station”, shout over radio.

  3. You somehow know what fleshmend is. Your character is a regular doctor, not a trained expert in changeling biology.

  4. You then, risk your life AGAIN to chase a person with a hatchet down a maintenance tunnel. How is this sane? Your character should know how to actually fucking judge a situation and say “Should I go into a dark maintenance tunnel when there is an axe-wielding assailant going around?”

  5. Using your own judgement, which is not that of any command nor security personnel, regardless of their existence, you choose to remove them from the round purposefully by spacing them. You then claim they had fault in their death, and they could’ve talked it out, while you were spacing them, while they were probably in soft-crit.

You are not the judge, jury, and executioner. You do not get to decide who lives and dies. You do not get to decide who is and isn’t a threat to the station. If you can’t understand this, I personally think the ban needs to be extended.

17

You can justify not letting them get away.
You shouldn’t have had a syringe gun loaded with morphine.

But the reason you got banned is that you threw them out the airlock, going from powergaming and validhunting to self-antagging.

It is highly frowned upon to remove players from the round without justification, and it’s even worse to prevent their revival.

You did something you shouldn’t have done with equipment you shouldn’t have had, and then you took it a step farther. Spacing player corpses is something only antags should be doing. You shouldn’t really do it as security on Golden and you really shouldn’t do it as a doctor on Sage.

18

I was fully justified in removing them from the round. If they would have been revived by someone who doesn’t know that they are antags then they will cause trouble again.
The matter about the syringe gun has already been settled. For some reason the Beestation rules are not the same as the Beestation Sage rules.
I’m also telling you time and time again that it is NOT valid-hunting, see my comment above as to why.
Spacing this corpse was a quick and easy way to stop revival. Not being able to revive sucks, but is REQUIRED when dealing with an antag that can’t be jailed. How in the HELL do you expect me to deal with an antag if that antag will just revive and kill everyone?

19

I’m not going to play like a broken record. You aren’t the prophet. You don’t get to play God with antagonists because you had blissful ignorance to not read the MRP rules. I don’t know how to explain it any simpler.

20

You act like the type of assault I did was equal to the assault the chemist did, bashing someone’s head in with a toolbox. What I did was more akin, no, WAS subduing someone.
I am in a very safe position if I have a syringe gun. I also had another person with me that would help me when the chemist would have turned on me.
Everyone screams there is a ling on a station if they find one, you can’t tell me that people don’t know what changelings are. Fleshmend is a basic biological function for changelings and anyone that has observed this would have noted it down and share it with central command.
I do agree that chasing a madman into maint was risky, but I felt quite confident and competent then and the guy seemed unrobust, which he was.
I also executed them before I spaced them. I can’t possibly handle 2 people without having any cuffs. One that could wake up at any moment.
Why do you want me to stay banned so badly? It’s fucking normal to kill a traitor as a non sec if you are 99% that guy is a traitor. I even called the security to chapel first, but they never came because there was no security.