What the FUCK is that argument ? Ruko LITERALLY removed one of the main mechanics of the current combat gameplay of bee, do not phrase it as a “step forward against a step back” you’re literally owning yourself.
If ruko added a whole new combat mechanic and people told him to remove it, your argument would have been fine, here it’s so stupid
Even if sec had shittier gear, it’d not change that this pr removed a big strategy part of the gameplay on bee making it much more interesting than a gear check. It’s just easier to focus on the obvious thing first.
Yeah, crew are less likely to take down the antag, but crew still rushes towards the antag, mostly med mains, with circular saw/toolboxes/whatever instead of shoves. Nothing about the RP changed.
obviously if they use the incredibly loud riot armor that halves melee damage, change your tactics up a little. like maybe that’s the time to use shielded cloak?
you mean the :
-5 minutes delay between remakes on an altar shared by the cult
-3 use hit protection cloak that goes away if they happen to not use the slug but instead use the red bullets i forgot the name of
-extremely loud and obvious cult antag item ?
yes that’ll surely help you’re right it makes the shotgun sec meta completely ignorable
It’s almost like security is supposed to be the primary defense against antagonists and that they should pose a threat to them instead of being easy pushovers. The same is true for antagonists, who can now stop worrying about random joe disarming them from nowhere.
This PR was a package deal whether you want to recognize it or not:
Armed security is now always a threat
Armed antagonists are now always a threat
Unarmed players, antagonist or not, are much less of a threat
If you’re an antagonist who isn’t properly armed for combat, get fucked.
No matter who or what you are, being able to face a heavily armed opponent regardless of your equipment loadout is not good.
RE: Riot armor
Riot armor provides shove immunity. It’s incredibly disingenuous to bring it up as somehow being overpowered as a result of this PR. If you are losing to riot armor sec now, you were already losing to riot armor sec before because you couldn’t disarm or wallshove->stun them before this PR either.
The advantages (and disadvantage that is being ignored) of riot armor is completely irrelevant to this PR and thread within the context provided.
The only argument I can see being made about riot armor is that it is potentially not worth equipping now since it lost most of what made it worth enduring the slowdown. Nobody needs shove immunity armor anymore.
So… everyone getting the same tool which they both must make use of and must constantly play around in order to succeed… This tool being more powerful than almost any piece of equipment and able to win any fight immediately if used successfully… somehow makes combat more diverse than needing to rely on prep or at least more contextual surroundings than “solid object”.
Right. Okay I don’t think I can argue with logic like this, you’ve won.
Good day.
They already were a threat, even before the PR. If you genuinely believe that having the strongest combat items in the game made sec easy pushovers, I don’t know what to tell you.
Yes, they now need to worry about random Joe running at them with a toolbox/welder/saw/whatever instead because blocking is still worthless and there’s no way to disarm him because he can just activate grab intent and be immune to it, or swap his active hand and continue to punch you.
Security is now much more of a threat to armed antagonists, due to there being no way to disarm security anymore.
They are not. They just grab whatever weapon/tool and kill you directly instead. Nothing has changed whatsoever.
Antagonists aren’t even remotely a threat anymore with the current sec meta being “grab the shotgun roundstart and shoot anyone who dares enter my field of view”. Antagonists are the pushovers at this point.
So you’re saying an e-sword/e-bow traitor or an armblade/adrenaline changeling isn’t armed for combat? Because they will lose every fight they take due to there being no easy to access stuns. Can’t break into sec without being shotgunned either, so no baton, if that was your idea.
I’ve seen this change for about a week, and it’s absolutely terrible so far. Nothing has improved RP-wise. Nothing has improved validhunting-wise. Combat is now just a slog of who can click the fastest with no further thought put into it.
This is did not make it into the final version which is merged. You can’t block the diarm.
And they are no longer unarmed
That sounds like an issue of sec grabbing armory equipment on green alert to me, which is an ever present and completely separate issue.
I’m still having a hard time wrapping my head around this for a few reasons:
Was the shotgun not just as powerful before this update to shoves?
Was not the #1 pushback against this being that it was simply a skill issue to avoid shoves, meaning that if the player was skillful they wouldn’t be possible to shove into dropping their shotgun anyway?
Could they not simply “shoot you once” as you moved in close for the shove before with the same efficacy as now?
Previously, didn’t you also have to worry about being shoved and dropping your weapon too? Or was this never a problem because it was more of a liability as evidence than simply choosing to fight without one?
Above all, do you think combat revolving around easy stuns is fun? I sure don’t. It’s also why most stun weaponry has been nerfed to its current state.
I’m asking genuinely with the above points: For what reason is shotgun sec so much stronger now when they could so easily shoot you for getting close before? It’s such a skill-based mechanic they can just avoid getting shoved after all.
I’d like to make it a point that I am not arguing that shotgun sec isn’t extremely strong - I think it is, but I think that an issue of it being too strong is completely separate from this PR. If a weapon is so strong that being unable to wallshove-disarm it has broken it, the weapon in question was already an issue especially considering sec already had easy access to shove immunity (albeit with a slowdown) before.
Shotguns with wall shoves are just as powerful as without them. The only difference is they can now be used while standing next to walls without as much risk of losing them. You could still easily be shot trying to approach for the shove before, especially if it really only takes one hit from shotgun to totally cost you the fight.
No, it wasn’t. You were constantly at risk of instantly losing your gun and having it be used against you. There is nothing to be done about you holding your guns out in the open now due to two things:
The increased disarm cooldown makes it completely impossible to take an item someone has dropped, as their cooldown will be faster than yours
1.5+ seconds is WAY more than time enough to press E once to holster your gun after being knocked down.
Additionally, if you’re a skilled player, you can work around this. By pulling out your gun during the ridiculously long disarm cooldown, you can fire a shot and immediately holster again. In the next “cycle”, you just rack your gun. Rinse and repeat until they are either horizontal or so badly injured they run - at which point you can run after them, and shoot them into crit, as you were never at risk of injury.
Every player makes mistakes. Every player falls victim to overconfidence, which is what has killed many, me included, in the past. In fact, overconfidence is exactly how security was dealt with before, but now, there is no way to deal with them, as they’ll pull out all their gadgets one by one after being knocked on the floor, and you can’t prepare for every single one of them.
Yes. They could. Though, at that point it would be a, let’s say, very, very poor choice of the officer to shoot anyone running near their general vicinity. They won’t be a security officer (or on the server, for that matter) for long.
Yes. You did. You also used to have tools against this sort of thing specifically - namely, blocking. Which was nerfed into utter uselessness so badly, it’s legitimately worse to block than to spamclick, but that’s a topic in of itself.
Combat revolving around stuns itself isn’t fun now, as stuns are essentially completely relegated to security, who will, obviously, stun anyone who even dares to acquire stun capabilities.
There is no counter-play to it beyond anti-stun chemicals - at which point they will just shoot you dead on the spot.
Even if they don’t have any lethal implements on their person, they will either:
Tide into the armory to get them
Ask the warden to get them, as no warden cares about context and will grant them what they want on any alert
Yell “BLUE ALERT NOW” on sec comms - to which any Captain will immediately raise to blue without even asking for context of the situation which they have never explained. Afterwards they will legally get into the armory to get their lethals to hunt you down specifically, while also patrolling the station with them regularly afterwards.
You used to have non-lethal, accessible counter-play to it in the past.
Indeed, that was actually something I viewed as a problem - the very problem this PR aimed to solve. I fundamentally disagreed with this being part of our combat system and I don’t think we’re going to agree on anything to do with removing it if you didn’t think it was an issue to be solved.
Though what I was referring to here was its threat compared to other weapons, all of which could also be disarmed. It wasn’t any weaker compared to other options than it is now because of a weakness that all weapons shared.
Both of these are directly intended, though it isn’t impossible to take the item before the player you disarmed - it just requires the person you disarmed to mess up, kinda like wall-shoves in general before, but more forgiving to the person who got shoved because a shove should be weak.
The idea behind these was to preserve the player’s ability to resist being disarmed in a way other than “don’t stand near wall”. This longer cooldown on disarms is what the “grab intent to not get disarmed” interaction was replaced with. More intuitive, similar effect.
Not directly intended, but I am aware this can happen and I’m perfectly fine with it since, as I’ve stated many times, a shove being a combat-winning move is shit.
Then weaken security’s stun capability - I’ve certainly never liked the fact that disabler rounds and stun batons are arguably more powerful than most of the lethal weapons in the game due to how few hits it takes to down someone compared to lethal options (assuming no stims). A stun baton is more powerful than an e-sword and a disabler is only really beaten by a revolver in this context.
But again, I see security’s power as a separate issue if it is one - regardless of what it was, if the only way to reliably fight back involved wallshoves, the equipment was too strong anyway.
I feel like you misunderstood me here. I wasn’t talking about shooting anyone and everyone who got near, I meant in a confrontation with a threat. You can’t just run up to the officer and disarm them if they have already acknolwedged you as a threat without simply being shot.
In the context of starting fights with a wallshove and stun, fuck that shit I couldn’t be happier that it’s no longer possible to completely remove the ability of a person to fight back with an opening attack that doesn’t even involve a weapon.
I much preferred RNG blocking to any of the systems that came after it tbh - I think blocking should be the three tiles you’re facing and blocking going back to a % chance to occur when positioning is correct, with the % chance being based on the held item’s block value and your stamina. Successfully blocked attacks cost stamina relative to the force blocked.
This is fairly intuitive and easy to grasp/utilize, but people will likely hate it just because it reintroduces RNG. Also yes, better for an entirely separate topic probably.
It’s almost like the PR that made security incapable of lethal force without an alert raise was actually a good idea instead of requiring admin enforcement.
There is no code change that can fix this, it can only be solved by banning players who are abusing their position and/or powergaming.
Ditto the above. Players raising alert levels without good cause will have to be dealt with by admins. There is no code change that can really fix this. Code changes can discourage or encourage players to do the right thing, but certain vital functions can only be locked behind common sense. Players without it need to be removed from positions that have power to abuse.
You can make all these long winded arguments you want, but if everyone BUT security players is complaining shouldn’t that make you think a little harder about the situation?
Are… are you effectively admitting that by noticing these combat changes you validhunt and powergame??
Easy. Nerf security. Bring em in line with antags.
Stun batongs do esword damage for example.
Disablers do damage equivalent to some kind of other common antagonist ranged weapon.
Shotguns with buckshot can probably have math to add drop-off so we can all enjoy the dichotomy of absolute cannon within a few tiles, but confetti gun outside that range.
Okay I don’t think people are being very respectful in this thread. It’s just a game, and Ruko is tinkering with a complicated subsystem for free here. Let’s not lose our heads over this.
Here’s my thoughts on the changes, although with the huge caveat that people still aren’t used to them so some people are used to the change and others aren’t. That’s going to screw balance for a while so, keep that in mind!
I like the two-step disarm. I don’t think it’s any more difficult to pull off than the old wallshove disarm, it just takes two clicks. I am not seeing this reduce people going for a shove or successfully stealing weapons from antagonists or security, but forcing people to shove twice before grabbing a baton or heretic blade or whatever shows the person’s intent clearly and helps escalate a fight properly from “random assistant tries to disarm the baddie” to “baddie executes the random assistant for getting in the way”. It just doesn’t make that assistant any less effective.
The floor shoves, this is where my issue is. Detaining someone who is out of a fight but still resisting through crawling or spam-moving is obnoxious. Floor shoves ensure that while they can still do this, there is a trump card and a reason for someone to fear being put on the floor by a lightly or disarmed opponent. Security players have to use their precious baton or disabler charges on this, but non-security players are kinda screwed. Primarily this is a problem for antagonists who don’t get great access to stun weaponry, and the captain since with the PTSD change they’ve lost a lot of blue laser power. I’ve noticed captains being forced into taking threats down lethally because they’re just not equipped for a nonlethal takedown on a hostile force any more. If there’s more than one threat (revs, cult, any other ‘group antag’) the problem is even more pronounced and the change just encourages lethalling into crit.
So in short, vigilante shoves and stealing weapons is slightly better but not any more difficult, but dealing with people who should be out of a fight is more of a pain.
You’re a bit disillusioned if you think every person posting support is a sec main. I know I’m not, I know @PerishedFraud isn’t (He vocally criticized my reasoning for the change, but did fully support it), and I know @ivanmixo isn’t to name a few. There’s also going to be a disproportionate number of people here to complain as opposed to those that don’t mind or even like the PR. People who like a change don’t really make a huge vocal presence most of the time.
I get it’s controversial and a lot of people dislike it, including prominent people. There is almost never a meta-shifting balance change that doesn’t result in this.
Nearly all complaints so far have boiled down into one of two categories:
Complaints centering on the fact that unarmed combat is weaker than X. And yeah, considering the entire point of this change was to make unarmed fighting substantially weaker, those complaints are going to fall on deaf ears.
Complaints centering on how overpowered certain gear is now, when gear power level wasn’t changed - only the fact gear is more relevant than someone’s ability to get off a shove.
You’re going to have to find something to complain about that doesn’t fall into one of these categories if you want me to address it as an issue caused by this PR, because so far I haven’t seen any actual issues presented. I see people unwilling to cope with needing to adapt to a new and fresh meta primarily. The meta where you respect your opponent’s equipment instead of being 100% focused on trying to steal it.
I do appreciate the defense, but this is actually incorrect. @mc_meiler was correct in their post earlier: The longer cooldown on disarm intent attacks ensures the person who was disarmed has the first opportunity to pick the weapon back up. They have to mess up at this step in order for a disarm to actually be completely successful. Depending on when their last action was, they have anywhere from 0.8 to 1.6 seconds (minus their ping) to react and click their dropped item before the disarming player can take it.
That’s explicitly why disarm intent has a longer cooldown than other actions now, so disarming requires the disarmed player to mess up more than just being too close to a solid object for a moment.
Oh in that case I’d say the cooldown has to be slightly longer. Not a lot, about half a second or so. In practice I see the disarms working fairly consistantly still, probably because the aggressive player is the one anticipating a weapon drop.
Also and I didn’t mention this, but guns are more powerful because there’s more time to get shots off. If you run at someone with a syndie revolver, you are setting yourself up to be shot as soon as they hit the ground. Love this part of the rework, guns were incredibly underused and hopefully we see more gun syndies.
Yes they still seemed to work for me a decent amount of the time as well, just not nearly as consistently as before because it requires the opponent to fumble picking it back up while they have their chance to.
It’s useless, every single flaw making this PR terrible is something Ruko sees as it “working perfectly as intended”
Unless someone magically manages to revert Ruko’s entire philosophy of combat on Bee, it’s not going to work.
Ruko switched his stance from “it improves RP” to “actually i think combat is better now”, because the first is complete bullshit, and the second is now much easier to claim now that it’s extremely controversial and the PR is already introduced.
And spindel the sec main going on and on about how he loves being able to just shotgun everyone and hating before how he was at risk as a sec, as now he’s able to spam the same exact weapons everytime, is infuriating.
I’m gonna make a counter-PR to this the second I figure out how git works again. Let’s hope it gets merged.
