I’m torn on what to vote for. Combat isn’t really something I think about when I play Bee. Most of my focus is conversations and non-combat roleplay. I’m not a good person to ask for fightin’ topics.
However, maybe this could conditionally be part of a skills system PR. Most crew outside of security lose the wall-shove disarm.
Those who haven’t played on SS13 skill systems it works like this - your starting job on a shift affects what you’re good at. Examples:
Security wall-shoves and shoving someone already horizontal disarms.
Chef crafts/butchers faster.
Medical doctor performs surgery a little faster and doesn’t critically fail surgical steps as much.
Engineer tool progress bar is faster
Assistants have minimal skills but something in every area
Miners mine faster with non-cutter tools
And it varies on whether you can improve skills or not. Some servers allow you to level up skills by doing them and others do not to keep roles specialized.
I think removing wallshoves and replacing it with an RNG disarm is a terrible idea. SS13 is an RPG, yes, but unfortunately its not the type of game where RNG in combat would fit, as we’re not taking 10 minutes to think of our attack before doing it, and its not Baldurs Gate or Divinity, we are all very real people and not NPC’s. Spamming disarm on someone is even worse than wallshoving if you ask me, as discussed above it completely undermines people that actually take a second to think about their positioning; and also makes it so if like 3 people started spam shoving you, you’d lose your gun before you could kill one person.
And personally, wallshoving isn’t as common as you might think IMO but that could just be me not being in combat much cause I play pretty passive jobs.
There is, without a doubt, a better way to go about this instead of removing an actually ok mechanic in this game and replacing it with a worse one.
They’re still extremely powerful in the hands of someone that can use it well. Though they may be slow, it’s not as hard as you make it to lead shots and consistently hit other people. When it comes down to it, it doesn’t take many hits with an egun to take someone down, especially considering the slowdown after the first two or three shots.
One PR wouldn’t exist without the other, so I’m assessing them as one single proposition. I assume this is fair, as you made this thread with links to both PRs.
Oh Xylana, haven’t you heard? Development here isn’t a democracy.
Players can and will optimize the fun out of a game if given the chance.
However, I maintain that removing wallshoves in favor of stamina damage shoves that deal bonus stamina damage for wall shoves is a viable alternative(as opposed to flat removal). This is because it:
A) Removes one click wins
B) Still rewards positioning
Wallshoving(in the way we see it here) or really any equivalent of putting someone on their ass while they are against a wall is difficult.
Most manners of doing that you are taught revolve around manipulating their center of gravity in a front/back manner. Walls inhibit that a lot.
You know. Guns are also meant to be threatening. Crying that weapons are overpowered against someone with nothing but their fist is really silly. This only gets made worse when you bring up your points, or the fact that people are fucking bullet sponges in this game.
I could check if I can reopen it.
This is what I’ve been saying!
Yeah that’s kinda the point. Guns are restricted because of the power they have. You realistically shouldn’t be winning a fight where you have to run up to someone with a gun. In game or real life.
In fact, there’s a rule for this.
The 20 foot rule.
If you’re unarmed and they are more then 20 feet away, your best option is to run. They will have plenty of time to pull their weapon and fire before you reach them.
You completely missed my point here. I was never against the idea of them being strong, rather them being strong meaning that we donn’t have to nerf other mechanics (wallstuns) to compensate for it.
I definitely could have communicated this point better on the thread: No the PRs were made so one or the other could be chosen if somehow acceptable
Existing proposals (all three in total now) are irrelevant now regardless, more discussion took place in discord and a more reasonable compromise was reached so the discussion has served its purpose. I proposed outrageous/extreme (but supported) solution to kickstart discussion and find a more agreeable solution and it was found.
I can’t brain very well right now because I was given ketamine for surgery (irl) so I’ll be waiting to respond to other specific points until later.
Wallshove still knocks down without disarming. Remove 4 second stun for shoving again after knockdown.
Probably add a way to disarm after knocked down, haven’t decided on what to go for with this yet. I don’t entirely agree with Bacon’s proposal of having it replace the stun and like the idea of using the counter to 3 here or having a “combat trained” check
positional advantages should be rewarded. But an immediate stun/disarm should not be the reward.
This is the compromise as worded by someone else. A knockdown without stun enables wallshove as a defensive play for someone trying to survive and get away, but less so as an offensive play for an unarmed person to completely reverse the situation
I had an idea in the very back of my head to work on a unique skills system for bee based on what bay does (plannedemic), but thats after all my other laundrylist items. We could either go linear categories or fully-blown rimworld-styled skilltree where your character round-start has some innate skills that you choose, but you can improve/worsen your skills in-game with reading (curator has something to do or training (punching bag))
the entire point of skills is that you need to ask for help to do certain jobs, players will ALWAYS optimise the fun out of games and if you give someone the choice of asking for help or do some mindless repetitive task they will almost certainly pick the option that makes them stronger in the longterm
That’s actually really good. It’s pretty close to what I argued for as well on the Discord, though I think a smaller, nerfed stun existing rather than a full removal would be better.
You and others very similar thoughts at the same time, but I believe it was you I quoted yes. I picked one person to quote to make sure I got the point out accurately due to being drugged when I was making that post.
It’s a great general solution to the validhunting side without actually gutting the mechanic as a whole, and there’s room to tweak in either direction.
There’s definitely a lot of minor tweaks that can be tried over exactly what I mentioned, but testing (flashless battle royale on Linden?) is what would ultimately decide what feels best.
Tweaks I think are worth trying:
If a more brief stun is kept I think it should shift to the initial knockdown phase rather than a follow-up attack.
Since a knockdown without disarm or long stun is only a slowdown, I do think the three second knockdown could probably be made longer to better facilitate “shove-and-run” without being so immediately tailed again
I meant you could slightly improve your skills throughout an hour, maybe gain one skill per 30-45 minutes of using an item that requires skill to use.
Example: All security officers start with (or usually choose) advanced gunmanship meaning they have better accuracy at shooting versus a Cargo Technician, who may have a better ability of appraisal.