Doo doo doo do
Alright, after reading a lot of Jellico’s posts and suggestions, I am going to sum up the knowledge in the best way I can to hopefully close this debate for good.
To summarize what I have learned, barring everything but the weapon balances and exact reasons why…
Jellico is suggesting improved damage to most station-side items and weaponry in order to…
- Better combat antagonists and their weaponry such as E-Swords, probably even though it hasn’t been exactly mentioned Changeling’s Armblade, and maybe that Mateba Revolver from what I’ve read.
- Make items that seem like they’d do more damage actually do that damage. This includes the Captain’s Sabre and likely others. I heard the wrench somewhere but I don’t know if that was from Jellico themselves
Things that would be buffed include:
Unarmed to 10 Damage
15 to “Everything else that would do something” presumably this means things such as Wrenches and Screwdrivers, but there are likely many more.
25 to “Heavy/Dangerous” items such as kitchen knives, gas tanks, fire extinguishers, and glass shanks.
35 to the combat knife (but also probably the Miner’s survival knife), Hatchets, Cleavers, and Toolboxes.
50/75 for dedicated melee items such as the Katana, E-Sword, and DE-Sword
15/90 for, lets say, “Heavy” dedicated weapons like Axes, (Sledge, probably)hammers, the Chainsaw, and Greatsword.
and 25/50 to spears.
To their credit they also made lower numbers, which dropped…
Unarmed to 7,
17 to Dangerous/Heavy,
20 to Hatchets, Cleaver, and Toolboxes,
25 to Combat Knife,
35 to Dedicated Melee,
15/40 for “Heavy” dedicated melee,
and 15/25 for Spears.
Now that we likely know the exact reasoning for these numbers, we can respond in a well informed matter. Jellico, this part is for you.
Many people have responded believing your idea is bad, but why?
Why exactly is this idea bad? I’ll tell you.
These items should not have this high damage because it would put a heavy strain on Security, would make Valid-hunters a real threat, Dramatically buffs antagonists, put a strain on Medical, and could imbalance certain items.
First Point:
If weapon damage is increased on all of these weapons, then security is in major trouble. Most of their equipment is made of non-lethals and ranged weaponry. Batons, Flashes, Disablers, Pepperspray, etc. These are built around incapacitating a target non-lethally. Security would now have to deal with the entire station having roundstart access to high-damage weaponry such as Gas tanks, extinguishers, and toolboxes. Many of these items are also not illegal to have, so security would not be able to stop people from wielding them. This puts security into a very tough spot, with security officers only able to take a few hits from certain station-side items before being put in crit. These items are also very accessible, so it’s not like the current Fireaxe which there are only 2 of, and they are kept under lock and key. That would heavily impact how security responds to threats.
How so? Well here’s an example.
A security officer is patrolling the station, blue alert. Sees an Atmos Tech running around with a fire extinguisher. “Not a big deal” he thinks. “Atmos techs usually have to put out fires.” when he goes to speak with them, the Atmos tech begins attacking the officer. Let’s say he’s a robust officer, and the guy only gets 3 hits off by the time he pulls out his baton. All for naught, however, as the Atmos tech is able to hit him another 2 times before he gets stunned, and the officer ends up in crit. It was a Rev round. That officer had such little time to respond, they may have only gotten to call for backup before he was put in hardcrit.
Let’s do another example. This time on the side of the innocent.
An assistant is getting attacked by another revolutionary. They grab a fire extinguisher and defend themselves. This rev calls out on the radio for security, saying they’re being murdered. Security comes and arrests the assistant for apparent “Assault with a deadly weapon” or if they’re especially unlucky, Attempted Murder. Now, that assistant either has to spend 5 minutes in the brig for self-defense or potentially ends up executed by security who only saw an assistant attacking someone with a lethal weapon.
This will force security into a constant paranoia, as anyone could be a potential threat. This would also make crimes be worse as now that many items are now deadly. Overall, it wouldn’t be good for security, or the innocents they arrest.
Second Point:
Now that many weapons on the station are deadly, valid-hunters, including assistants, become a real threat to antagonists. As few as 2 assistants working together could take down any melee-focused antag like E-Sword traitors, Space Ninjas, or even Changelings. If all it takes to put one of them into crit was a few hits with a fire extinguisher, then what’s stopping valid-hunters from grabbing one and duking it out with whatever threats the station that day? Let’s grab another example:
Lets say you were a robust traitor. Gave security the run-around and executed your target quickly and quietly. You see some assistants running at you, toolboxes in hand. “No worries.” you think. “I’ll just E-Sword them to death, no big deal.” They tag-team you, taking off 50ish health in their first hits. By the time you get to drop one of them, you’re already on the floor in softcrit. You’d have easily won… if those fire extinguishers didn’t do as much damage.
In summary, it would give traitors another major threat while buffing valid-hunters, which may make traitors seen as less of a threat if 2 assistants are all you need to take them out.
Third Point:
I know, I know. “That example just proved how it would nerf antagonists!” and while in some cases that’s true, in others… not so much. For example. Holoparasites, North Star Gloves, Sleeping Carp. What do they have in common? Unarmed damage. Standard Holoparasites have the same ability as North Star gloves: making you punch really fast. If unarmed damage was upped to 10, or hell even 7, that would make those much stronger. Extremely fast, 10 Damage punches with the ability to knockdown would cripple many people, 7 may be better, but remember, Unarmed damage is randomized, so assuming that 7-10 damage would be the median, and it could be more or less then it might make these even worse. Similar story with Sleeping Carp, as it buffs your unarmed damage.
Now that’s just unarmed damage. We also have weapons to worry about. With E-Swords doing 50-75 Damage, assassinations are made insanely easier. Traitors now just have to hit you twice, or maybe even once to get you in crit. By the time you’ve registered that you’re under attack, you’re already dead. Also, Changelings. Yeah, I don’t even need to mention changelings.
For some honorable mentions…
Revs and Gangs get to have more lethal weaponry and no cost to the leaders,
Cultists and their constructs get to cut down people faster,
Blood Brothers… yeah it’s just traitor 2x.
Fourth Point:
This is a wierd one, but becomes clear when you think about it. With all these high damage weapons rolling around, people are going to both be dying much more often, and just have overall higher damage on them by the time they get to medical. This puts a strain on medbay’s supply of patches and would force chemistry to make much, much more more medicine to cope with the loss of all their patches and first-aid kits. And the cloner? Oh god the cloner. A lot of times it’s already swamped with dozens of bodies if something particularly bad goes on. With these kind of weapons it’ll be going every minute of the round, which also forces chemistry to keep up on making synthflesh. Not even surgery will be able to save it, since those surgeries take time and there aren’t an unlimited number of doctors that can, or know how to do it.
In summary, it’d put a lot more on the platter of Medbay, force chemists to make Brute/Burn Medicine and Synthflesh all shift, and would overwhelm medbay’s stock of medicine and sleepers.
Fifth Point:
I’ve already mentioned North Star, Holopararsides, and Sleeping Carp so I won’t go over them again. However this issue encompasses other weapons. I’ve taken some liberties in what would encompass this since there are many weapons not mentioned, but here I’ll list how they’d be effected if they were effected or not.
Energy Dagger, either becomes a very, very weak traitor item or a cheap, viable weapon compared to the last resort it is now.
Power Fist, either gets much more damage, potentially doing more then a DE-Sword or just becoming the baseball bat if you cranked up it's knockback but wrapped it in bubble-wrap.
Viscerator Grenades, either becoming insanely lethal or just target practice for Sec.
Oragami Kit, either becomes negligable, or allows for a very quick execution considering damage and stun time.
Romerol, either gets much more dangerous, or pretty worthless. (They use zombie claws rather then unarmed damage)
Ninja Stars, get insanely lethal when paired with it's instant imbed and bleed, or.. well they're still lethal even without a buff.
Energy Katana, turns the ninja into an unstoppable murdering machine with all the benefits it has. Still lethal without a buff.
Death Nettles, either become worthless or an insanely robust weapon for skilled botanists.
Baseball Bat, pretty much the same as the power fist, but weaker, however it can be built very easily.
Those are mostly traitor weapons, not to mention things like the toolbox, which on top of being a lethal weapon is able to store things, and the fire extinguisher able to slip people and then bash them for heavy damage, and the Stun Baton that takes too long to incapacitate traitors or multiple suspects before the officer is down, etc.
All of this would likely lead to heavy powergaming. Augments to survive all the high damage weapons, Bats/Flashes/Improvised Shotguns to get out of CQC fights, staying away from literally everyone all the time due to the risk, reviver implants to get a second chance in any fight they end up in, etc.
Not to mention on the side of traitors, such as emagged toolkit implants and Anti-Drop implants.
Overall, this would imbalance a fair few items. I’ve likely missed many considering the amount of items in SS13.
Conclusion of bad:
In summary, upping the damage of most items has a very large impact on how the game would be played. People would powergame more often, sec would be even shittier while also paranoid, traitors both get insanely more powerful in some cases and woefully ahhniliated in others, Medical would have to go into overdrive due to all the damage and corpses, and it would heavily imbalance many items, both traitor gear and non-traitor gear.
But, if we are to argue, then we must look at the good. Something nobody from what I’ve seen has done.
What good would upping the damage numbers do?
After pondering this, I can only think of a few things.
-
It would make fights much shorter, and in certain instances with traitors, more fair.
-
It would make antagonists more careful and stealthy as to not be discovered and destroyed.
-
Crew could pull off insane underdog moves such as wiping out a Deathsquad or Xenomorphs using just geurilla tactics and melee weapons.
Now, because this is technically the “Counterclaim” of the argument I need to show why these aren’t the best.
Point 1:
While fights would be shorter and fairer on occasion, there’ll be many times in which they aren’t. Ever thought getting E-Sworded in maint was bad? Try doing it with a 50 Damage E-Sword. Sure, fights wouldn’t last longer since one party would be dead 5 seconds in, and I suppose going up against a E-Sword wielding traitor as a Captain armed with his Sabre would be more fair, but we can’t base these kind of large desicions off of what could happen “sometimes.” Sure, sometimes the fight would be more fair, but most of the time, they would be even less fair for one side or the other.
Point 2:
I personally agree with the idea of antagonists being stealthy, but there has to be some breathing room on their end. If the second they’re spotted they get hunted down by the entire crew, who knows they can take them down no matter their opponent’s robustness if they have enough members, then it’s not enjoyable on the side of the antagonist. You’d have to be absolutely perfect in order to pull off an entire shift while doing your objectives and not getting spotted, or just have a dozen mulligans. So while stealthy antags are good, this isn’t the way to make them a reality.
Point 3:
While yes, much higher damage would give the crew more chance to take down these groups, we gotta think about the kind of situations they come in. Deathsquads only show up when the station is royally fucked, and they come in prepared. If the most likely few, unequipped crewmembers were able to wipe out an entire military task force with at best mid-round level equipment like Deathnettles, then that is a problem. Deathsquads are hard to wipe out and should stay that way. With Xenos, it’s also very similar. There’s a lot of them, and melee is their whole deal. If the again, few and un-equipped crewmembers were able to fight through Xenomorphs with little difficulty with just mid-round weaponry, then that is a problem. Xenomorphs are meant to be horrifying, dangerous monsters that are difficult to wipe out. Sure, crewmembers could certainly survive, but a poorly-armed small group of survivors shouldn’t be able to wipe out all but the worst aliens just with their melee weapons.
Oh boy, I didn’t even mention Xenomorphs being buffed. Lets not get into that for now since we know where that’ll go.
Closing
Overall, buffing the damage numbers seems like a very poor idea with very few benefits. Perhaps certain weapons could use a change in damage, but something like this doesn’t seem overall good for how the game would play. There are many arguments to make against it and the ones for it can be rebuted.
So, what should you do if you’re truely adamant about these changes?
Do something you’ve yet to do. Make a PR, or try and host your own server with these numbers. I’ve done so and with some tutorials it isn’t too difficult. Test them out yourself! Get some people willing to help out, change up some code and see how your numbers would effect the game. Someone in that “Reasoning Avoidance” thread, I think, said it best. If you’d like to respond, I’d be happy to engage in the conversation. Are there any reasons i’ve missed? Something I overlooked? I’d like to hear it if I did.
To everyone, including Jellico
If anyone wants to respond, especially Jellico, I ask that you do it in a respectful manner as I am trying to do here. I want this debate to be put to rest, so lets close it out here. Lets not go into suggestions like that Forge idea in your original post, or devolve to stuff like when you said:
“if it really comes down to letting you all rot in your own poop, yea I cant do anything about that. jazz hands”
This isn’t a place to bicker, or a place to have a battle. Leave all salt and anger at the door, everyone. We’re here to end this topic once and for all. Lets end the mountain of forum posts, and lets do it here. It’s the final thread, now. doo doo do, doo
oh and please don’t use the term “Rape simulator”, thanks.
Lastly, to the admins:
Yes yes yes yes, this has been done to death and quite a few threads are locked because of it, but unless this gets settled I personally don’t think it will stop. I want to end the argument in the most rational, analytical way I can. Lets lock it if it ends up far off course, or the same thing gets repeated again and again, and it just doesn’t go anywhere. This is my attempt to shut this discussion down for good, and we can only hope it works.
Godspeed.
Massive TL;DR for people skipping to the end:
I list Jellico’s balance idea and reasoning, then go through why that would be a Bad idea, and even how it could be a Good idea before I immediently debunk those.
Bad because it makes sec paranoid and weak to most things, because it gives valid-hunters very powerful weaponry to drop even the most robust of antags with the right numbers, dramatically buffs certain antagonists like lings and traitors as long as they stay hidden, makes medical go insane trying to heal all the damage and replenish the medicine they use up, and imbalancing a lot of items and weaponry depending on if they’re apart of the balance.
Good because it sometimes makes fights with antags fairer, even though it will very often make fights even less fair, because it forces antags to be stealthier, however giving them little to no breathing room if they do get spotted which would make it a poor way force stealth, and because it gives the crew fighting chances against very powerful forces like Deathsquads or Xenos, even though by the time those end up as a major threat the crew should have very little they can do to stop either of them.
Edit: Grammer and shiz
Edit 2, shorter TL;DR:
Proving exactly why Jellico’s balance ideas aren’t that good to shut down the topic of weapon balance.