Halinder Antag/Ghostrole Ban Appeal

CKEY: Halinder

Admin’s CKEY: Vexylius

Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: MRP

Ban Type: Antag/Ghostrole Ban

Ban Length: Week

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 2/18/2020

Round ID: 12657

Ban Reason:
“BoH bombed the shuttle as an ashwalker. You really though that you wouldn’t get banned for it?”

Appeal Reason:

  1. Vexylius’s reasoning for the ban was as follows:
    “Admin PM from- Vexylius : Well, this is an MRP server, and you have to have a reason to kill someone. Your objective is to protect the tendril, and that’s no reason to BoH bomb the shuttle. You’re getting antag and ghostrole ban for a week because you don’t seem to know how does this not murderboning and killing only if you have a reason for it rule works.”

According to this reasoning, Ashwalkers are not permitted to kill anyone who isn’t attacking the tendril. This goes against practically every ruling I have ever seen with Ashwalkers, who regularly butcher Shaft Miners for sacrifices and invade the station to spread death and destruction among people who would have otherwise never come down to Lavaland. As I told Vexylius in admin PM’s, this ban reason seems bogus; I got the feeling that the admin team felt that my actions were generally “wrong” and had heaps of trouble justifying it under the rules.

Ashwalkers are quite literally told to go out, murder people, and drag them back as sacrifices. Their flavor text includes despising the “outsiders” (crew) and considering them the enemy. This is important because another argument was that, because the crew was leaving on the shuttle, they were no longer a threat to the tendril and were off-limits. That’s not true because they’re “outsiders”, inherently dangerous, and ought to be slaughtered per all the flavor text.

Against claims that this was somehow metagame: the nest was directly next to a golem ship. Those golems provided me with a bag of holding (I asked for a “backpack”) and then mentioned they had a teleporter to the station. In addition, I overhead them explaining how dangerous BOH’s were as a way of trying to prevent a newbie golem from BOH-bombing the shuttle. That’s all the knowledge I needed to have a shot against the crew.

Additional Information:
If you’re not going to lift this ban, at the very least edit some of the writing/include bits in the rules for Ashwalkers. If they’re suddenly not going to be allowed to attack people, that needs to be reflected in the flavor text that tells them to go out and hunt. Otherwise, there’s always going to be a serious disconnect between what the rules say and what you’re told in-game in bold 18-point letters.

NOTE: Ban has since been upgraded to a 3 day full-ban from the server. Seems like the trialmins told the fullmins that my excuse was “murderbone is allowed for Ashwalkers”, which I never exclusively said. I’d prefer if y’all didn’t ban me for something that you felt like you had to change my words over to make it sound more justifiable.

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I agree, ashwalkers purpose is ultimately to kill crew and increase the ash walker population. But you can’t really drag bodies back into the tendril when you destroy your and others bodies BoH bombing the escape shuttle and ultimately ruin other people’s rounds. I was actually having fun helping the station resurrecting people since cloning got destroyed only to die from a suicidal ashwalker

I’m glad you agree. By killing large quantities of crew members, I make much fewer opponents for the rest of my nest to take over.

I just got done reading the rest of the new ban reason and they tried to say that they “Tried to reason it’s only okay if they’re being sacrificed to tendril”… which is bogus, since they never said that in their ahelp to me. That was something I mentioned here and that non-admins were talking about in dchat and OOC, but I don’t recall that being something the admins mentioned. This feels like sloppy work, especially with them changing my words to make it sound like I played exclusively to murderbone.

Except part of the job of being an ashwalker is bringing bodies back to the tendril so you have more ashwalkers. You escalated it to murderboning right when the crew (your enemy) was going to escape and not bother you. Then you decided to murderbone via BoH bombing for no gain. I agree that ashwalkers job is to protect the tendril, kill crew and bring the bodies back so theirs more ashwalkers. I don’t think BoH bombing achieves anything more than being an asshole.

Counterpoint: In a station raid, Ashwalkers have to kill a shitload of people to make it possible to have enough staying power to survive. The vast majority of the people they kill are never brought back to the tendril, and most of the time, Ashwalkers will spend the entire tail end of a round never going back to Lavaland and instead continuing the station fight. That’s not bannable, and never has been. I bombed the shuttle when it had just arrived and the other Ashwalkers were getting ready to come on-station to make sure nobody would fight back, but by the end of it all, it looked like the other Ashies decided to try getting to the mining outpost instead of going through the golem-porter.

Ashwalkers are told, in plain words, to go fuckup the station when they spawn. Idk what your angle here is but if they BOH the station, theyve done pretty damn well at fucking up the human invaders.

I have to say you make some solid points here. I think this ban was ultimately wrong. Allowing crew to escape as Ashwalkers doesn’t make sense. This would ultimately go against their best interests as not only does this mean less corpses to use. But also even in a roleplay scenario these are semi-intelligent creatures who have the capability of making strategies. It does not make sense to leave survivors as they are witnesses which would risk further endangerment to the Ashwalkers.

This ban is unjust.

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Ashwalkers are not told to go fuck up the station when they spawn

Ashwalkers are told to sacrifice to the tendril and not to leave it undefended. The message might differ on MRP from LRP, but this is the message I have always gotten as an ashwalker. It’s widely accepted that they can murder anyone so long as they do so with the intent to sacrifice them to the tendril, even backstabbing miners that have been helpful and made “friends” with them.

BoH bombing the shuttle is not accomplishing this objective

I’ve seen numerous tickets about ashwalkers brought up and justified with “As long as they’re sacrificing the body, it’s fine” Boarding the shuttle just to suicide BoH bomb it is definitely not doing this

Edit: I’m trying to create an ashwalker so I can get the exact message on spawn to verify this hasn’t changed or something. I’ll get back to this thread once I’ve succeeded but I’m not sure I have enough access to do so

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I think the issue here is there is a real roleplaying reason to do such to the shuttle. Making the station an unlivable mess doesn’t make sense as you have to go up there to get the bodies. But the escape shuttle is a very different subject. Ideally, Ashwalkers wouldn’t want any witnesses to escape for both corpses and to keep their existence hidden from the larger universe.

Unless Ashwalkers are changed you just can’t justify them not taking action against would-be escapees.

I’m not going to lie, I understand your logic here, buuuut… There is a real roleplaying reason for a traitor to want the entire station dead too, but OOC rules in place to prevent this from happening as well because it’s bad for the health of the game.

I had also already gotten onto them for doing this earlier in the round too, so I have to call into question the real value of role-playing this out.

[2020-02-18 22:57:36.425] SAY: Halinder/(Germanium IV) “Personally I despise it when people do extra shit.” (Space (84, 235, 2))
[2020-02-18 22:57:46.693] SAY: Halinder/(Germanium IV) “Just murder me, stop wasting my time.” (Space (84, 234, 2))
[2020-02-18 22:57:53.947] SAY: Halinder/(Germanium IV) “'m trying to ghost already.” (Space (84, 234, 2))
[2020-02-18 22:57:54.950] SAY: Halinder/(Germanium IV) “Retard.” (Space (84, 234, 2))

Still waiting on exact ashwalker spawn info, by the way.

Was annoyed at a traitor who was dragging me around for an extended period of time after catching me out in space and restraining me. Also, highly off-topic. This, together with putting false words in quotes to imply I said them, gives me the impression that y’all ain’t 100% sure about your reasoning here and need to create a bad rep for me to sell the act.

The traitor comparison is misaligned at best and disingenuous at worst. Ashwalkers are told to kill. Traitors are told in no uncertain terms in the rules page that they are NOT to murderbone unless it fits hijack. There is no room for guesswork there.

Definitely not highly off-topic. Zoey brought up a valid role-play point. I counter-pointed that you had an issue with questionable role-playing and minor OOC IC earlier in the round just to insult a player you were unhappy with. A ban for needlessly bombing the shuttle is effectively a ban for griefing, so setting up issues you’ve already had seem pretty relevant to me for establishing actual motive as not being role-play related.

I’m also trying to reason that just because you’re told to kill doesn’t mean you can grief the shuttle, and establishing your motive for doing so is pretty important in this case. Were you just sneaking on the shuttle to kill everyone just because you thought you could get away with it? Was there a threat to the tendril that you had established IC? Had you even encountered miners or established the station existed…? Or did you just see the round was ending and use OOC knowledge to sneak into the mining outpost, up on station, obtain two bags of holding you shouldn’t even know what do IC, and then get onto the shuttle wordlessly so you could grief everyone because you’re a shitter?

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Right, you showed that I did IC-OOC whenever I was frustrated with someone. Salt is a well-known thing in all spessmen. In this case, I had no reason to be frustrated, so I don’t see me being salty as being a factor.

I’m probably going to need to ask someone else to get on this case, since you post-editing your reply to get really aggro + the earlier putting a fake quote to make me seem like a worse person earlier leads me to believe that you’re going to go to any lengths to try and convince others that you and Vexylius didn’t mess this one up. For the record, though, you’re completely making up the use of OOC knowledge to “sneak into the mining outpost”. I’ve already listed in the ban appeal about how my contact with the golems led to me obtaining BOH’s, knowing how to use them, and accessing the station. It should also be noted that if I was the griefy shitter you portrayed me as, I wouldn’t have made peaceful contact with the golems.

If you’re going to present facts, present facts. If you’re going to make things up, this isn’t the place.

Those are intended to be examples, not accusations. I’m presenting scenarios that come through my mind to explain the situation - The one I believe is true right now is the first situation listed. “blowing up the shuttle because you thought you could get away with it”.

I don’t believe you’re a hardcore griefer, but I do think you went out of your way to ruin the round for several players without a valid reason. You think your reasoning is valid following logic I’ve never seen used for Ashwalkers. I have no problem handing the issue over to another admin though, especially since I absolutely can’t produce proof of what Ashwalkers are told at spawn on my own until they naturally occur in a round again.

I still think ashwalkers have no excuse to even touch the evac shuttle. A counter-point for roleplay reasons on why is your a ashwalker, all you know is that the crew is a major threat to your tendril and they’re much easier to kill and bring to the tendril than the other mobs. If you hear about some kind of shuttle arriving and that they’re gonna leave, that should be great news since they aren’t gonna fuck with you or the tendril anymore because they’re trying to escape much larger issues. Also, straight up there are no objectives that ashwalkers have to destroy the evac shuttle. Destroying the evac shuttle like that is just going out of your way to be a major shitter and just inappropriate behavior as an ashwalker


image

Anything I say as an admin at this point I feel will just be perceived as hostility, so I have nothing else to say as an admin over this, just posting these images here for further debate until a higher admin arrives.

Okay, saw this and did some quick code diving:

Code/game/objects/structures/ghost_role_spawners.dm

“You are an ash walker. Your tribe worships the Necropolis”
“The wastes are sacred ground, its monsters a blessed bounty. You have seen lights in the distance… they foreshadow the arrival of outsiders that seek to tear apart the Necropolis and its domain.
Fresh sacrifices for your nest.”

“Drag the corpses of men and beasts to your nest.”
“It will absorb them to create more of your kind.”
Don’t leave your nest undefended, protect it with your life.
“Glory to the Necropolis”

Edit: Ninja’d by a screenshot.

Edit:
Not stated:
“Bugger off from the only place you’ve ever know, and, with objects that by all rights you should be utterly ignorant of, expertly suicide bomb the outsiders as they flee, leaving the tendril both undefended and unfed.”

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Uncertain why you have that bolded. There were still Ashwalkers defending the nest.

We are talking about a race that is comparable to our stone age ancestors. While they are primitive it doesn’t mean they are clueless. Since they too have a concept of warfare like humans they would also understand some basics of warfare. So I think I can properly dismantle your points here.

It doesn’t take much knowledge to grasp the concept that if something can arrive than it likely can also leave. In-fact with Ashwalkers also being a hunting species they would know this all too well when coming up empty handed in a hunt. They may not understand the shuttle but they can understand the concept of coming and going and that really is enough.

So why object to the humans fleeing? Because humans (and other station species) show that they can fight back and are clearly more advanced. Given that Ashwalkers know warfare and its obvious so does the station crew it’s only safe to presume that the crew could seek help and return at a later date and be a major threat to the Ashwalkers. No different than if a Ashwalker ran back home to ask for aid in a conflict and came back with reinforcements.

Primitive ≠ stupid or the lacking the ability to plan / have foresight.