Low collateral in the rules refers to the people that the method affects rather than the method itself.
Maxcapping brig with the intent of wiping out security is fine as long as only security members are affected by it. So if there was an event, like a lot of crew being deconverted there, maxcapping wouldn’t be okay.
Likewise, maxcapping medbay to kill the CMO is not allowed in principle, except if the CMO is the only person in medbay for some reasons.
On the report itself.
Are you reporting a player, reporting ImSynthex, or are you asking for clarifications regarding rules?
If the issue was resolved by the admin, then this should be a staff report.
I am not reporting ImSynthex. I just asked them for a rule clarification in an unrelated round. I am reporting a player AND asking for a rule clarification. The rules are ambiguous to me here.
It’s hard to know who might be killed by a big ass explosion. That what I mean by inherently high collateral weapon.
Kero believes this is the most asinine possible interpretation of this rule.
Kero will be punished for accidentally hitting an innocent bystander he didn’t expect to with a normal or small bomb, but not for wiping an entire empty chunk of the station out with a maxcap as long as nobody happened to be near it that it wasn’t intended to hit?
From the R13: “Bombing the security wing is not considered low-collateral.” Me confuzed.
Kero understands this to be because nobody is off-limits when if he has hijack, random and wanton murder is expected because they are allowed to murderbone.
There is no amount of collateral damage that is too much for murderbone as Kero understands it.
For this exact reason I was very careful with my wording, I can reword what I meant for you if you want. I would allow you to kill a security officer with a single 3x3 grenade if you aren’t in a main hallway, medbay central, the bar etc. etc. I don’t want want to rules lawyer over “Well, I only used a 3x3 bomb instead of a 4x4 bomb, so I used low collateral methods” it’s really hard to give a blanket statement for whether grenades can be low collateral or not, because it just depends on so many different variables
This is my problem because now it sounds like depends from admin to admin. And not by a little. Haliris just said that he think it’s fine to maxcap the entire security department if it only kills sec. Meanwhile you are saying that if it’s bigger then a 3x3 bomb you would act. Former I don’t even get bwoinked, latter I get banned. Worrying lack of consensus.
You’re never going to get a black and white answer for this.
There are far too many variables.
Antagonists can use explosives, but they should be careful when doing so.
Whether or not they can use them within the rules depends on multiple factors such as:
It depends. Water Potassium bombs and low yield meth bombs can reasonably be considered fairly low-collateral depending on how they are used (and how often). As far as I’m aware this part of the rule exists so sec doesn’t get maxcapped every other round.
R13 directly contradicts this.
I’ve been outright told in the past by a (at the time) headmin that maxcapping to complete an assassination objective was fine. This very well may be outdated, so I’ll go ask.
Pre-emptively eliminating sec/command based objectives is not murderbone.
All explosions used were 200u meth nades. They are not max caps. half of them were rigged to proximity sensors so they were very precise. It wasnt indiscriminate to my victims, there were collateral mostly in medical staff since the majority of explosions happened there.
Sec were summoned to Virology to deal with a self-antag virologist who sent a secoff into crit (which by far was the largest violation of the rules that round). I just capitalised on it by placing nades in your walk path.
I know every explosion employed, they were all targeted at sec. For command staff i only targeted captain and hos. CE was collateral because he was dragging hos to safety and i was throwing nades at him.
that said, there are 3 explosions that went off that didnt meet their target but there were justifications in their employ
1 was a explosion for HOS which i placed in his walk path from virology, i was certain he was the only person in that area, i didnt expect the person i personally cloned to suddenly be done walk out of cloning into it.
2 were defensive mines mean to protect my escape pod from the freshly revived HOS.
I never said you used maxcaps. I wish people would stop focusing on maxcaps when they are not what I’m talking about here. They certainly were not 3x3 or potassium bombs that is for sure. And I wish people would stop mentioning potassium bombs like that is the issue.
That is what high collateral means. You can’t control who dies. That is why I argue the bombs can’t be low collateral.
This is what I’m talking about. It doesn’t matter whether you “know” every bomb that you used when you by your own admission have killed crew that you didn’t intend to. Either bombing is not allowed and you broke the rules or bombing is allowed everything you did is okay.
So you are saying that is on factors that change wildly from admin to admin. What a nebulous rule.
No, I’m saying that there is a massive difference between blowing up five people with a maxcap because you felt like it, and blowing up one with a methnade because they were a threat to you. I cannot and will not give you a blanket statement of ‘yes antags can bomb’, or ‘no antags cannot bomb’, because this game is not that simple.
This isn’t an issue of it changing from admin to admin, it’s an issue of it changing depending on the circumstances. The rules do not exist in a vacuum, they depend on context to be properly applied.
Whether or not the bombings here were justified has yet to be determined, that’s up to whoever handles this report.
When I read this I feel the rule is basically it’s okay to bomb with chems valids as antag as long as you at least make an effort not to bomb non valids. And try for your bombs not to be “too” big.
Don’t focus on the maxcap. Most people agree that is high-collateral. And don’t focus on potassium bombs because those most people would agree is low-collateral. I really am only concerned about meth bombs and their various sizes.
Refer to my previous explanations. I’m tapping out of this conversation since it’s becoming largely pointless and continuing it will only clutter this thread further.
On another note, I’m going over this now.
I’m gonna be compiling some logs here, but the brunt of the work has already been done by discussion and opinions by other staff members on this thread.
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Central Primary Hallway (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Central Primary Hallway (97, 129, 2))
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Bridge (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Bridge (105, 134, 2))
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Central Primary Hallway (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Central Primary Hallway (129, 115, 2))
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Central Primary Hallway (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Central Primary Hallway (129, 121, 2))
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Central Primary Hallway (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Central Primary Hallway (129, 125, 2))
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Medbay Treatment Center (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Medbay Treatment Center (136, 120, 2))
GAME: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) primed a chemical grenade at Medbay Central (0, 0, 0) containing: (bottle of water 1 : Methamphetamine, 50); (bottle of water 2 : Methamphetamine, 50);. (Medbay Central (146, 115, 2))
This isn’t even the maximum amount of meth in a grenade, these are low-yield in comparison to what I personally use. These bombs roughly come down to a few tiles in breaches and lethal range.
Seeing as these grenades aren’t that high in collateral damage, I wouldn’t rule this as a violation of R13, especially since Cymbus had the following objectives:
OBJ: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) was assigned the following objective automatically: Steal the medal of captaincy.
OBJ: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) was assigned the following objective automatically: Steal a reflector vest.
OBJ: Cymbus/(Milana Feyweather) was assigned the following objective automatically: Escape on the shuttle or an escape pod alive and without being in custody.
One affecting command, one affecting security. Murderbone policy says you are permitted to pre-emptively take out members of the departments your targets are in. In this case, their target departments were Security and Command.
The CE rescuing the HoS getting killed themselves was their own fault.
Bombing medbay was also justified as the Captain was there at the time, and they were specifically trying to target them, not random medical staff.
Overall I don’t see any wrongdoing, given current policies, guidelines and rules.
Report Rejected