Incident Description: Using chemical grenades to bomb command and security staff as non-murderbone traitor.
Additional Information: The rules say that low-collateral methods must be used. I don’t think bombs count as low collateral.
My real issue is that if this is not considered high collateral then there simply is no counter play. Of the two times I got bombed like this I never even saw it coming. It’s not like a bulky TTV bomb. You can make these in broad daylight and no one can tell. You can stuff 8 grenades in a box.
I asked ImSynthex and they said things like: “depends on the size of the explosion”, “the maximum I would allow is 3x3” and “depends on what department they are bombing and what they plan to do with the body”.
To me this is spiting hairs. Can you bomb security and command staff or not? If yes, they I can bomb them wherever they are and no matter who is next to them. What does it matter if I use two 3x3 bombs instead of one 4x4 bomb? To me a bomb can not be a low collateral weapon no matter what.
Take a look at this situation that happened: I get bombed into crit as HoS in medbay. The CE is trying to rescue me. We both get bombed and die. Was this okay? Well if bombing is allowed then there is no issue. I’m security and am valid and so is the CE because they are command. Even if they were not command they are interfering and so are valid. If someone else got hurt or the fact this was in medbay is not relevant. Nor would I think it makes sense for traitors to be fine in bombing the bridge, but not the bar, for example, if there are valid targets. It’s time for the ademes to decide.
Kero thinks a small water+potassium bomb is substantially less collateral damage than many other forms of explosive available. Kero knows a chemical payload is similarly small and may contain more force than a maxcap if it is mixed correctly, and Kero may detonate it with an adjacent smaller explosive in the same container.
Kero’s point is that size of explosion truly does matter when reducing collateral damage, and he believes some collateral damage is acceptable.
Kero believes this to be an issue with the game itself more than anything. Kero knows how it feels when no amount of skill could have saved you from a situation, but there are many instances of this in the game, and this is also in the nature of traps as well.
Kero firmly wishes for explosives to remain allowed without opening the floodgates to maxcap for killing one person.
A little question intrusion on my part: Isn’t maxcapping to kill one specific person allowed? Nothing happened to a few traitors I’ve seen that have done so successfully to their target, so I’ve been assuming that this is allowed. Is it not?
Kero has not seen this, and understands the demand for clarification if this is the case.
Kero must wonder what on earth is low collateral about a maxcap.
Kero also wishes there were a frog equivalent of the thinking raptor image he could attach here.
Low collateral in the rules refers to the people that the method affects rather than the method itself.
Maxcapping brig with the intent of wiping out security is fine as long as only security members are affected by it. So if there was an event, like a lot of crew being deconverted there, maxcapping wouldn’t be okay.
Likewise, maxcapping medbay to kill the CMO is not allowed in principle, except if the CMO is the only person in medbay for some reasons.
I am not reporting ImSynthex. I just asked them for a rule clarification in an unrelated round. I am reporting a player AND asking for a rule clarification. The rules are ambiguous to me here.
It’s hard to know who might be killed by a big ass explosion. That what I mean by inherently high collateral weapon.
Kero believes this is the most asinine possible interpretation of this rule.
Kero will be punished for accidentally hitting an innocent bystander he didn’t expect to with a normal or small bomb, but not for wiping an entire empty chunk of the station out with a maxcap as long as nobody happened to be near it that it wasn’t intended to hit?
Kero understands this to be because nobody is off-limits when if he has hijack, random and wanton murder is expected because they are allowed to murderbone.
There is no amount of collateral damage that is too much for murderbone as Kero understands it.
For this exact reason I was very careful with my wording, I can reword what I meant for you if you want. I would allow you to kill a security officer with a single 3x3 grenade if you aren’t in a main hallway, medbay central, the bar etc. etc. I don’t want want to rules lawyer over “Well, I only used a 3x3 bomb instead of a 4x4 bomb, so I used low collateral methods” it’s really hard to give a blanket statement for whether grenades can be low collateral or not, because it just depends on so many different variables
This is my problem because now it sounds like depends from admin to admin. And not by a little. Haliris just said that he think it’s fine to maxcap the entire security department if it only kills sec. Meanwhile you are saying that if it’s bigger then a 3x3 bomb you would act. Former I don’t even get bwoinked, latter I get banned. Worrying lack of consensus.
You’re never going to get a black and white answer for this.
There are far too many variables.
Antagonists can use explosives, but they should be careful when doing so.
Whether or not they can use them within the rules depends on multiple factors such as:
Damage Caused/Explosion Size
Collateral Damage
Location
Who you are bombing and why. (Bone objectives largely circumvent this)
It depends. Water Potassium bombs and low yield meth bombs can reasonably be considered fairly low-collateral depending on how they are used (and how often). As far as I’m aware this part of the rule exists so sec doesn’t get maxcapped every other round.
R13 directly contradicts this.
I’ve been outright told in the past by a (at the time) headmin that maxcapping to complete an assassination objective was fine. This very well may be outdated, so I’ll go ask.
Pre-emptively eliminating sec/command based objectives is not murderbone.
All explosions used were 200u meth nades. They are not max caps. half of them were rigged to proximity sensors so they were very precise. It wasnt indiscriminate to my victims, there were collateral mostly in medical staff since the majority of explosions happened there.
Sec were summoned to Virology to deal with a self-antag virologist who sent a secoff into crit (which by far was the largest violation of the rules that round). I just capitalised on it by placing nades in your walk path.
I know every explosion employed, they were all targeted at sec. For command staff i only targeted captain and hos. CE was collateral because he was dragging hos to safety and i was throwing nades at him.
that said, there are 3 explosions that went off that didnt meet their target but there were justifications in their employ
1 was a explosion for HOS which i placed in his walk path from virology, i was certain he was the only person in that area, i didnt expect the person i personally cloned to suddenly be done walk out of cloning into it.
2 were defensive mines mean to protect my escape pod from the freshly revived HOS.
I never said you used maxcaps. I wish people would stop focusing on maxcaps when they are not what I’m talking about here. They certainly were not 3x3 or potassium bombs that is for sure. And I wish people would stop mentioning potassium bombs like that is the issue.
That is what high collateral means. You can’t control who dies. That is why I argue the bombs can’t be low collateral.
This is what I’m talking about. It doesn’t matter whether you “know” every bomb that you used when you by your own admission have killed crew that you didn’t intend to. Either bombing is not allowed and you broke the rules or bombing is allowed everything you did is okay.
No, I’m saying that there is a massive difference between blowing up five people with a maxcap because you felt like it, and blowing up one with a methnade because they were a threat to you. I cannot and will not give you a blanket statement of ‘yes antags can bomb’, or ‘no antags cannot bomb’, because this game is not that simple.
This isn’t an issue of it changing from admin to admin, it’s an issue of it changing depending on the circumstances. The rules do not exist in a vacuum, they depend on context to be properly applied.
Whether or not the bombings here were justified has yet to be determined, that’s up to whoever handles this report.
When I read this I feel the rule is basically it’s okay to bomb with chems valids as antag as long as you at least make an effort not to bomb non valids. And try for your bombs not to be “too” big.
Don’t focus on the maxcap. Most people agree that is high-collateral. And don’t focus on potassium bombs because those most people would agree is low-collateral. I really am only concerned about meth bombs and their various sizes.
Refer to my previous explanations. I’m tapping out of this conversation since it’s becoming largely pointless and continuing it will only clutter this thread further.