And? “To a reasonable standard” is similarly open for interpretation, and explicitly designed to give the player discretion to ignore it when reasonable. What you screenshotted isn’t functionally any different. It also says “there is leeway”, which is the functional part of what I quoted anyway.
And you again cherry pick three words while totally ignoring the context around it. This is being intentionally selective in your interpretation.
What part of this is cherry picking? The two most functional parts of both what you posted and what I posted are “to a reasonable standard” and the provision of leeway.
Tell me, what is the standard on Golden? Does that not somehow imply a much stricter standard on Sage, implying that “some leeway” is minor, as most people interpret “some” to mean?
Don’t play on Golden, don’t care
No, because not everything is “Golden, but less”.
I interpret some to mean “When appropriate”.
I don’t know how to deal with reading part of something and then claiming you aren’t ignoring the context.
Have a duck.
It’s a happy duck.
happy duck goes quack.
Why would I know the detailed rulings of a server I don’t play.
The only thing I know about Golden is I donate to the Bee Patreon so that I never get punted there when Sage is full.
Duck
4 Likes
Murder has an IC law for it but admins still get involved if a non-antagonist does it.
To which I’ve already responded:
" Breaking space law is generally not an OOC issue unless it’s something that directly impacts other players such as unjustified murder/griefing/violence. Admins aren’t cops, the station already has cops, and admins can send literal super-cops on command that aren’t bound to command staff’s orders."
You responded to that, cool. I don’t really care about your opinion. Admins enforce the rules, not thoughts.
literally 1893 by blorge borwell
Do you know what would happen IC if the round didnt magically end with the evac shuttles arrival back at centcomm?
You would get debriefed and asked pointed questions about being negligent as a member of the command staff. And these questions would determine whether or not you would CONTINUE to be eligible to return to work in a certain position.
Which means that there is no practical difference between IC punishment by Centcomm and OOC punishment by the admemes. If you are a shitter IC on one shift you will not just wipe your hands of that shift and get to go back to work the next day.
IC your ass would get fired and then there would be no more shifts at SS13 for you.
I didn’t care to read all the back and forth of DurrHurrDurr and Ruko (not that it would be relevant seeing the nature of the issue), I will instead raise awareness on a issue that I think can yield meaningful discussion : how do we enforce Space Law, especially in a situation of mass casual disrecpect such as mass nullcrates ordering.
Big ass wall of text
The SS13 community at large (or at least the one part vocal on Reddit) has already significant contempt for security and command, and the curent sage playerbase is a worst offender than most. Strict enforcement of space law will almost always be met with at least social (things like being called cringe) resistance, can be still mild but annoying things such as shoves or arrestee stealing (on a unrelated note, DRAGnet good), or even escalate to self-antagging with the less bright part of the tide. This could lead, in the case of intervening against mass distribution, to anything from a protest to a fullblown mutiny. While security do have tools to deal with this, this leads to my next point :
Security is often understaffed (only exception being highpop) compared to the rest of the station, and do not know how to field most of their equipment effectively, nor how to operate in a coordinated fashion. I’m the only warden/HOS I know who set up the DRAGnets, and I cannot remember someone other than myself using them to bring arrest back in. I also barely see extra gear being ordered from cargo. I have yet to witness patrol in pairs, and assembling for a department raid can be challenging even on a cult round. This will be delicate to solve, being essentially a player problem, but you see how this can compound when combined with both mass shittery and the expected chaos antagonists creates.
But even if you work out or ignore both the social and strategical hurdles in your way, there is one last problem : the arrests, convictions, and use of lethal force. In a situation of a whole department (or at least a major part of it) being shitters, such has cargo ordering nullcrates, xenobio bringing the golem tide into existence, or botany growing literally anything that isn’t food or medicine, you will be put in a situation where you’ll have to pull off a lot of arrests, successfully process said arrests, and most likely use lethal force to even the powergaming the suspects has been doing. Hauling people from the raid to the brig can be quite difficult, especially if some are interfering with transfer because the operation makes you look bad. Optimally, one would use a DRAGnet, but, as I said, barely anyone know those are things. In the event you successfully arrested all the perpetrators, you have to give them duly enough process, preferably quickly, with the limitation of 3 temporary cells, a perma wing that can host comfortably up to 3 prisoners, and about 7 or 14 prisoners ID for temporary gulag (temporary and permanent gulag sentence being rather hard to conciliate without issues) (gulag also suffer from the lack of knowledge around it). This is fine for a subdepartment (botany, robotics, xenobio) shittery incident, this can get akward when a whole department engage in idiocy, but still manageable, but good luck trying to keep it clean when the worth of 5+ nullcrates gets spilled into the tide’s hand. I’m not going to touch on the use of lethal force, because I spent about 3 hours drafting this post, but this is also to discuss. I’ll rest my case for now
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Contact CC via IC means if you want them involved in an IC way - if admins are available and do get involved IC, they may also escalate it to OOC punishment if they find that non-antags are to blame or heavily involved, but this opens the door to handling the issue in a much more immersive way IC for other players to enjoy before issuing the necessary bans.
Two part answer to this:
- For players interested in security/Command, I fully recommend using a separate character to do so with, just because of human nature and social tendencies. Don’t have the stigma associated with you as a player, but with your character as a member of command instead. While metagrudging is against the rules, it’s also quite difficult to prove in many cases and it’s better to take minor steps to protect yourself from them when you can.
- Also important to remember on Sage, non-antags are required to do their job and follow CoC in good faith. Players in violation of rule 14 should be handled IC and OOC, and feel free to ahelp if you have chemists just fucking around by making drugs instead of doing what they need to be, for instance. If you demote someone and they start acting antagonistically - treat them like an antag, and ahelp if you believe they aren’t one. If a player is violating rule 14 and then decides to self-antag for revenge, you can bet your ass they’re getting a Sage ban.
In most mutiny situations, either the player(s) starting the mutiny or the command staff being mutinied against are liable to be banned depending on who is at fault. The situation should still play out and be handled IC to the best of the involved players’ abilities, but mutiny is almost always getting into “someone should be banned” territory unless it was orchestrated by an antagonist.
HoS is responsible for ensuring security is well staffed. This means conscripting/deputizing crew to fill in where more security is needed and anyone who complains about “not being able to trust them” is just being a metagaming idiot who only cares about winning instead of role-playing in good faith.
If there is no HoS, the Captain or Acting captain should appoint one of the existing officers as HoS and task them with the job above. Chain of command is a great thing when the players who are a part of it actually do their duty.
Spend some time teaching others how to set them up - even if it costs you so much time that you lose the current round, you will have created an additional person robust in the ways of DRAGnet for all future rounds.
This is applicable in any situation where someone seems to be the only person who knows how to do something. We are a newbie friendly server - please take some time to teach others who aren’t as robust when you can, and perhaps even make some time if you don’t think you have it. If you want to set something up, invite someone to watch and be a part of it even if they slow you down to be there.
Large scale raids should always be escalated to CC (probably via direct ahelp), or at least attempted to. So long as a raid against a department is made in good faith and admins are notified ahead of it rather than after one of the raided people ahelps, you will either always have the admin/CC backing of it as an IC issue, or they have a chance to intervene before a completely unnecessary shitshow goes down.
If you don’t get a response before starting the raid, the record is at least there that you tried to, and it will frame the information you went into the raid with for potential player reports/ahelps from the other side crying shitsec, and it helps to frame whether the situation is an IC clusterfuck or not.
One of the points Durr twisted out of whack earlier - not every conflict needs admin intervention, and sometimes clusterfucks happen as a part of the game. What matters is that Sec/Command is on the side trying to defuse and/or prevent them rather than encouraging them. Command should virtually never be looking for excuses to create conflict with other departments and/or secede from the station or Nanotrasen on Sage.
Command and Sec are charged with keeping order on the station, and will generally be the first ones in contact with CC both via IC channels as literal Central Command, and via OOC channels where you’re asking for Admins to help as Game Masters. You are only one step down from CC and Admins both in terms of authority, and this is why the rules state that you are held to much higher standards (and why they should be)
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I ask this question just posthumously, why do we have the emag option on sec masks if sec and command can’t use or possess emag
You know damn well that isn’t the reason you were banned for having the emag or the only thing you did with it. Your post is disingenuous and misleading. If you had emagged masks and then stored it in evidence you would almost definitely not have been punished for wanting funny mask sounds.
Additionally, have you ever considered infiltrating sec as an antag, or stealing one of their masks for the funny soundclip you can make it play? Infilitrating security as a traitor is a pretty great thing, and it’s really confusing whether crew should trust their sec as legitimate when they’re sporting and using obvious Syndicate equipment.
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I know that’s not why I was banned and I wasn’t intending to mislead I was just curious genuinely
Just thought I’d add words of a wise man to this thread.
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