Command, Contraband, Space Law and enforcement

Why is ANYONE neglecting their duties an OOC issue, especially in cases where the only neglect is contraband use? There’s an IC law for this, as well as numerous mechanisms that both other crew and admins can use before noting/banning.

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Non-antagonists are required to perform their assigned job in good faith. Breaks are fine, but ignoring your department and obligations is not. This goes especially true for Silicons, Heads of Staff, and Security.

Because this is a roleplaying server with standards on the characters you can play, especially as command staff. As has been said repeatedly, if you don’t like it, go to Golden where these don’t exist.

You can’t call it an IC issue when there is nobody to issue IC consequences for your actions

Command is expected to issue the consequences for such IC issues and if they aren’t it is an OOC issue for the command staff in question unless they have a better reason than “gamer loot go brrr”

The fact that you get away with it doesn’t mean that it’s not IC. That’s nonsense.

That’s pretty much exactly what I said: “as long as you’re not powergaming, possession of contraband (even as command) is usually an IC issue, not an OOC issue.”

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?

Breaking space law is generally not an OOC issue unless it’s something that directly impacts other players such as unjustified murder/griefing/violence. Admins aren’t cops, the station already has cops, and admins can send literal super-cops on command that aren’t bound to command staff’s orders.

This is ultimately correct and I agree with you. The difference here is command is the enforcement players should be hiding their illicit activities from, not the ones attempting to hide it.

You are not “getting away with it” if nobody is even trying to enforce it in the first place. Command is responsible for being the enforcers of their own departments. Captain and sec for the whole station.

This is not correct. I am explicitly telling you that this is only true for non-command.

This is not your decision to make and you should stop acting like it is. You can play by our rules or leave. The last time I was involved in a round with you, you tried strongly encouraging players to completely disregard what admins were telling them then too.

You are not the one that decides what the rules are for the server.

And centcomm has numerous mechanisms to enforce space law against command with as well; command aren’t even mechanically/in-character immune from space law anyway, any security officer can arrest the captain for possession of contraband.

My issue with this entire line of argument is that “neglecting your duties” warranting an OOC punishment for nonviolent infractions can be extended into all sorts of bullshit areas, like a HOS/security officer not arresting a clown with lube for workplace hazard (or sabotage), not arresting a mime making an art exhibit/spraypainting art for vandalism, or any number of relatively minor round goings-on that an admin can then use to encroach on any number of regular occurrences in a round.

A typical round of SS13 probably contains a few dozen instances of command staff “neglecting their duties” under this sort of definition and not enforcing space law/following space law to the letter because space law is a tool to be used against hostile actors and people disturbing the piece. It’s not a holy text, and is self-aware of that to the extent that Beestation’s space law contains the following: " The rules and regulations herein are not absolutes, instead they exist to serve mainly as guidelines for the law and order of the dynamic situations that exist for stations on the frontiers of space, as such some leeway is permitted." (Emphasis from the wiki)

It’s especially lame to elevate Space Law to the extent of enforcing it out of game, especially when admins have at their disposal a significant number of tools to deal with it in-game, from inspectors, to ERTs for resistant command, to NT ninjas, smites, and any number of other tools that could be used more appropriately to provide consequences within roleplay instead of restricting it so ham-handedly.

If centcom is getting involved because of command incompetence, job bans should be on the table for Sage.

Why? Admins are as much Game Master as they are rules janitor, and centcomm is, ultimately, another player in the round.

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Call it a demotion if you want to say it’s IC. I’m leaving this discussion for now though - I have my job to do IRL and my lunch break is over.

In my view, admins have an enormous variety of tools at their disposal that they can use to respond to this kind of behaviour (from crew or command), most of which would probably enrich a round compared to just noting players for things like nonviolent space law transgressions that go unenforced.

I think admins should use them more, because going after a player playing captain for having an emag so they could shitpost with their security gas mask (and ending up using it for something else) is, to be honest, kind of shitty and petty, especially when 90% of the time an emag comes into the brig that’s the very first thing that happens anyway.

You yourself know there is scarcely more than one admin on at a time and the average Sage round has 20 tickets for them to handle.

You expect too much from someone without understanding the priorities of what they do. Having better command staff to actually enforce IC consequences for actions that players should be discouraged from making is the first step to a better experience for everyone overall.

You can disagree all you want with it, this is how it is. Play command if you want to be the babysitter, not if you want to be the one hiding things from the babysitter. Simple choice between those.

And again, you can alternatively play Golden where command staff like you are describing is ideal and desired. The low roleplay server without standards expected of its players.

I think this is an incredibly short-sighted, overly simplistic, and flawed view of what kind of enforcement philosophies actually encourage roleplay.

Tacking this back up since I pinned it on at the same time as you posted. You and @jammor9 are considered to be among the worst command staff for Sage among admins, and yet are ideal fits for what we want and expect from command on Golden.

Give Golden a try, really.

(edit again to clarify)

That’s not to say you’re bad players at heart, just that you constantly push Sage in your own direction instead of following the rules and guidelines in place. Your actions continually make Sage way more chaotic than it is intended to be.

Antags clowns and gimmick roles are expected to be the primary sources of chaos on Sage. Other roles should generally be reacting to it, not creating it.

I think that’s a pretty monotonous view of things; it’s probably easier from a janitorial perspective, but do you really need 16-17 rounds per day of command that all behave the same way? The captain has a lot of tools to make rounds feel distinct and memorable (not necessarily in ways that cause chaos, though I don’t think that’s an inherently bad outcome) second only to those of admins, and should absolutely take advantage of them if they think it’d be fun for others in the round.

No because that’s not what happened when this standard was actually respected.

Command staff are the enforcers of the station. They can always have different approaches, punishments and priorities, but they should always be the counterbalance to a round’s given chaos rather than contributing to it.

Sage is supposed to be an inherently calm server, the antithesis to Golden, with sprinkles of chaos here and there. Roleplaying is the crux of the server.

We don’t have two servers so they can play nearly identically

I mean that’s kind of the crux of it; outside of greenshifts I think that SS13 (and tg code especially) is, at a design level, almost fundamentally opposed to calm, and I think that roleplaying is more about how you interact with the other people on the station than the level of chill vibes you’re putting out. I also value the freedom to explore your character/interactions within the context of the round far more than I value the idea of putting blanket restrictions on behaviours that aren’t incredibly intrusive to others’ enjoyment of whatever they’re doing.

If you want to restrict the command decision tree that’s fine, but I think that blanket restrictions on non-invasive behaviours hamper roleplay more than they help.

In the context of the appeal this thread spawned from, the only rule that captain broke was space law, which is self-stated to only be a guideline. His decision was extremely reasonable in-context; a bomb had just detonated on the shuttle, and he had just been assaulted by two members of his crew. He had the emag for a non-powergaming reason, and used it to escape an ongoing disaster. There isn’t actually anything in this scenario that’s unreasonable for the captain to do, and the issue that everyone is focusing on is that he had the no-no card in his backpack.

I think that this is a perfect example of just completely throwing out context and whether or not his actions were reasonable (and roleplay-friendly) in that moment because of a pretty minor detail.

And I strongly disagree with you and ask you to respect what those of us who built Sage up want out of it instead of moving in and disregarding stated rules because you disagree with them or worse you assume things are okay because nobody stops you, but simultaneously fight us every time someone tries to correct you.

I’ve had a feedback thread up for months, I haven’t gotten any complaints, feel free to post there bud. I haven’t had any bans or even a note in months either.

This will change when the rules rework is done if you carry on with your current attitude and views instead of following stated rules and guidelines.