TDM, and YOUR feelings

[BotTierPC]

TDM = Team Death Match

If you were to talk to me before my Admin Application id have… different feelings. But, time and perspective have a huge difference on opinion. Not that ive been overly aware of my opinion on the matter, or the change in it, but during some personal review ive realized, a good few of my recent events have been TeamDeathMatches: not to say the rounds were bad, or boring… that’s not my call

But there is nonetheless a continued theme of descent into TDM has been noticed, and my QUESTION TO THE GROUPCHAT is as such:

Is such a descent, is such an final fate TDM undesirable, repetitive, or overused?

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For what its worth, it does feel like a natural end

Forcing ultimate conflict between parties, and factions brings a conflict not only to the peak, but creates a natural end, all of which can be exploited in terms of round length. Conflict not only promotes direct engagement, but disrupts the usual activity of job-simming.

While I LOVE the game, the jobs and the peaceful shifts, and that was my bread&butter for so long, but now that im running events, events that force conflict, that ensure resolution im undecided… these may not have been my favourite events as a player, but they feel like the natural path, and best path at times as an active administrator running event

This game though is NOTHING if not the community, and as such id like to hear some more opinions on the matter! So please, if youve got any comments be sure to let me know and throw them into this thread!

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[Fronsis]

I do think that TDM can be interesting but it can be VERY hard to balance on an event, in paper you might have something planned on how will it go but in reality there’s always something that threatens that equilibrium of ‘‘any of the two can win’’ into ‘‘this side stomps the other’’

For example if you’re not careful, one of the sides can end up rolling up with Mechas, Nanites, Xenobio shenanigans that might make the other team unable to counter (due to specific limitations such as lack of access to those resources or specific gimmicks like.. dunno you plan a spider invasion but they can’t really do much against it unless an admin buffs the stats of a few spiders) and that might lead to one side being specially more ‘‘salty’’ than the other, ofc thre’s different ways to limit that with admins help, in the event where we couldn’t go to lavaland you guys gave us some resources in the lathe to survive for a bit!

If you don’t want to run into the repetitiviness of TDM/PVP I’m a Big fan of PVE events, where admins take their time to plan a unique event. such as the Halloween event of 2023 where there was a lot of lore involved, admin messages, a unique map, mobs, etcetera and It could be done on lesser scale if it’s planned correctly and you could even toss some player controlled mobs here and there, the gateway has been underutilized for quite a while and it’s a very good tool to implement ‘‘something is coming off from here’’ or ‘‘investigate the unknown signal coming from the gateway’’ which opens people to still work on the station and slowly send more and more folks into that place (or the place comes to the station if left unchecked)

’’Happy’’ endings should be obtainable but not easily or without a heavy cost for the station/crew, I feel like the PVE’s with admin interactions and possibly a few ghost roles (talked beforehand on the event thread i.e ‘‘I need people to be ghosts to be part of the X faction’’) that span a good narrative through the round are very enjoyable for me.

[Tapczan]

It’s a mixed bag with TDM rounds. Some of my more memorable moments are from revolution rounds where we would make a last stand in brig or trying to blend in among revs to escape the station.
At the same time such rounds can devolve into one side curbstomping the other or a bunch of ghosts orbiting John Murderbone as he obliterates the whole universe III (now in cinemas).

More recent rounds like that weren’t that fun at least in my perspective though. Crew just isn’t too willing to fight back against threats and lack of team antags being rolled leaves most players struggling with mechanics around them. This usually ends in them being called out and stomped by sec quickly. There’s also that one round I remember where stuttermed revs were reviving officers

As Fronsis said, I think PVE is better applicable for current Bee. Above problems don’t seem to happen with antagonists like the blob, where you have a big enemy who won’t negotiate with you and you shouldn’t hold back against it. I know the blob is technically a player but I feel like it acts more like an external force to fight against than typical PvP.

I will now shamelessly plug one of my favourite quotes from a Dosh video:

“Humans are terrible opponents, because unlike computers they don’t have the other player’s enjoyment at heart.”

And this holds especially true in SS13 where you fight overpowered BS with more overpowered BS.

That said, as for the plushie event there wasn’t really any other way this would end after plushies claimed the hallways. Mere existing in plushie areas was harmful to crew and their leader made it clear they wanted to take over. I feel like it was needlessly dragged out though, it should have ended with a shuttle call after most of the crew was already dead.

PVE doesn’t have to mean combat, it could be some environmental hazard or some other goal for the crew to work towards. For future events though, important ghost spawns should be given to players with extra explanation in advance on how the event is roughly intended to go.

[FriendlyIsisMember]

I believe there is a golden point between TDMs and Greenshifts, where there is a conflict but it is prolonged or postponed to such an extent, where crew has time to recover or prepare for the inevitable. These sorts of shifts, places players in positions where they never expected to probably be placed, while playing X-role and it makes it memorable.

There is a hate for TDM antags like cult,nukies,revs as in common cases, one side gets completely stomped and the round ends in 15 minutes, which just ruins the experience.

[PerishedFraud]

there’s nothing wrong with it as a concept, but it shouldn’t be overused.

our current playerbase is also a terrible fit for it. we’re more or less at the point where if an antagonist wants to kill everyone and actually knows deep game mechanics, they will not be stopped, period.

I used to have more in-depth views on this, but I honestly don’t think it matters. we have bigger problems than debating whether PvP is good or not, and if those problems aren’t solved there will be no one to PvP with (or do anything with).

[unknownautistico]

team death matches i feel like should be with round ending antagonist, aka midround spawns and nukies, not normal rounds with one tot, heretic and ling. it’d be great every once in a while but not every day and especially not every round

[Cato]

Conflict drives stories.
Conversion antags draw more players into the story.
Team based conflict, forces the conflict onto everyone. Antagonist vs crew.

Bee players however do not want pvp conflict.

I recall skimming bee forums to find Tapczan’s conduct in question.
Only for it to resolve into the classic situation i once found myself in.
The story typically went like this, someone was upset that the roboticist built a mech to defend the crew with.
On a glance it seemed perfectly normal conflict to the average SS13 player, and yet there was a player report.
The report wasn’t the problem, it was well within reason. But the current mindset of most bee players was a problem. I would be laughing at the state of things if this issue arose in any other server; imagine playing your role on the station within the bounds of the rules and constantly getting player reports for it.

The reports were shot down, but the message is clear. Players cannot differentiate what is too much ‘gaming’ because they on bee will never experience it on the other side.
Any form of PvP regresses into a taboo that outs you as an antag where your crewmembers will watch you be dragged away for fears that using the tools available to them results in community backlash.

The solution really is to stop PvP and focus on PvE.
The people who enjoy PvP are all having fun else where.

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My best TDM experiences were conducted with ups and downs in tension.
Cultists were found out….The cult snowballs!….Big random event wipes them and equalizes….gritty combat that extended into stalemate because one side did’nt overpower the other…
Combat should resolve an arc, but not end it and become the whole story.

The most memorable round i had was on tg and it was non-combative for most of the round.
The players spawned in and were told the by central command that the captain needs to finish the DNA vault in 25 mins or face summary execution.
EVERYONE was involved, there was stakes and everyone needed to work together.
After 25 minutes and we failed, CC send a message that there would be a death squad coming and the cooperation for the next 20 mins was spectacular as the crew banded together to protect the captain, it functioned practically as PvE as the deathsquad became the enemy and everyone was enabled when they were sentenced to death.
TDM can be executed on bee. It just needs stakes for the whole crew and implicit buy-in (usually their lives). Tension and balance needs to shift, not for individuals but for the entire team. And the enemy needs to not be from the crew, since pvp is trash on bee there needs to be a focus on external forces instead of traitors.

Empower the crew to be heroes of their own story and any ‘TDM’ will probably bring enjoyment to all. One side will win, that’s the goal of either side.
The play is to build tension then release it, giving the resolution to the players.
And then adjust indirectly to the side that is winning or losing.

Please give everyone implicit buy in, the worst events i experienced where done when the admin expected a select few people to play the story. And in the end, only a select few people actually interacted with the event or were able to influence it.
The biggest offenders are events that involved select information known only to a few players.
In the end no one knows about it and the rest never get surprised. No tension, no release.

[Baherain]

I agree that conflict drives the story forward, and I think the Plush Kingdom event was hilarious. To me, it just feels like TDM clashes with what what it the core part of the game to me: Playing the role of an employee on a space station.
To me, the worst offender here is War Ops. It basically means that I don’t get to play the role I signed up for, but instead have to play as a less well equipped security guard, walking around the station with minimal RP for 45 minutes before getting chopped to bits in 5 seconds by an unstoppable chainsaw wielding supersoldier in an armoured red space suit.
I played one War Op as a warden where I thought “Oh, I get to hand out guns now”, but no - everyone got AA, and just raided the armoury. I didn’t get to have a single cool moment.

It is like a switch is flipped, and the players change to an “I must win” mindset.

I think one of the issues is that text based communication takes longer than combat actions, so deescalation becomes impossible. If you play security by the books, you either die, or your target escapes.

I am sorry if this sounds like a rant. I very much like playing the game, and I am sure there are people who are way better at it who do not have these issues. I just come here to play a character have fun, and maybe die in a fitting way. TDM tends to take all 3 away from me.