Spindel Craic/Greed Yamato/Aden Finlay/Rusty Elderson Player report round 38368

Howluinb31153 · May 29, 2022, 7:12pm

Okay, no, i don’t think you understand what martial law entails -

Martial law is the imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions or suspension of civil law by a government, especially in response to an emergency where civil forces are overwhelmed, or in an occupied territory.

Assassinations and murders don’t create martial laws. When there’s a serial killer who has murdered two people, but isn’t creating a state-wide emergency to the point everyone is fearing for their life. You do not declare martial law.

ALSO :
Finally found the rule i wanted to refer to that i remembered reading a while ago.

Code Red Situation - situations which would warrant a Code Red, such as: full blown mutinies, hostile boarding parties, and Space Wizards automatically authorize lethal force.
Note: The Alert Status is not required to be elevated to Code Red as in most of these scenarios the Chain of Command will be too damaged or otherwise occupied to raise the Alert Level.

https://wiki.beestation13.com/view/Space_Law#Use_of_Deadly_Force

As said in the 3rd post in this thread, the very reason you can’t just switch to red the second you stubbed your toe, is because having a fully kitted out security with shotguns against antags who didn’t necessarily plan to go loud makes it wholly unfun and impossible to do anything without doing cheap shit like flash into bsb your target and done.

Phrasing it as “Sec isn’t supposed to cater to your antag needs of feeling super powerful” is bullshit, as you can still fight off antags without needing full on bulletproof/riot armor along with combat shotguns full of buckshot/white bullets and combat knives. You should phrase it more as “Sec prefers to powergame themselves to nigh invulnerability and make sure the antag redtext at all costs, no matter what, or no matter the antag” which… is a shit move. Rounds are already low on action & boring as it is, having sec be several one man armies near shift start over extremely light traitor activities is just, not fair play, and against SOP, which matters as heads & sec are much more concerned by SOP than other members.

People complained about the previous sec metagang who were dedicated on executing all valids, but at least they didn’t try as hard as possible to find the slightest reason 10 minutes into the shift to distribute really strong weapons and armors to the entirety of sec.

J.I.JOE · May 29, 2022, 7:30pm

I work at an oil refinery. When theres a gas leak the alarm siren goes off and I move to the nearest muster point. I do not have freedom of movement on a corporate property such as this because my terms of employment REQUIRE me to comply with emergency procedures.

That means that no, I cannot in fact legally go wherever I feel like and the corporation can in fact dictate to me exactly what I am going to do and when. Because I agree to these terms and conditions as part of my becoming employed in their corporation.

No doubt just like many SS13 crewmen do when they get hired by Nanotrassen.

Howluinb31153 · May 29, 2022, 7:32pm

this is becoming off topic as it has nothing to do with the actual rule, i’ll just add that a gas leak in an oil refinery would be equivalent to a plasmaflood on ss13 which … would be a code red.
If on the other hand someone just assassinated another of your coworkers on site, there’d be a police investigation and officers coming in to find out the criminal, shit would be checked, people under watch, but you’d still be allowed to work & come and go unless you are a suspect. That’d be a code blue.

Fronsis · May 29, 2022, 9:10pm

IMO this was a bad miss-handling of alert levels by Command, the blue alert was valid of course but the Red made everything fell apart for everyone and the super early shuttle call definetly ruined, i don’t even remember why we called shuttle… As i stated before the only 2 big things that happened was a decoy bomb from Clown who killed no one and the QM being murdered by a ling, heck i don’t even know how Rusty knew we had lings in the first place

Tamus · May 29, 2022, 9:14pm

Nukie was the cause for the shuttle call

Howluinb31153 · May 29, 2022, 9:39pm

The … nukie died within 1 minute of entering the station which you had confirmation of & their shotgun.

They did 0 damage, didn’t even kill anyone, completely new nukie. This is really not a valid excuse for shuttle.

Shadowslime · May 29, 2022, 9:58pm

Howl, the wiki page that you’re quoting is extremely clear, it only lists Delta alert as martial law. Red isn’t martial law.

Howluinb31153 · May 29, 2022, 10:25pm

Shadowslime · May 29, 2022, 10:33pm

Alright, I concede the point.

Haliris · June 3, 2022, 10:35pm

I’ve started going over this one.
I’ve finished the Captain and HOS part.
I’ll hopefully be able to review fully this report during this weekend.

Howluinb31153 · June 4, 2022, 5:11am

Could you make the stance taken on red alert/blue alert public ? No need to disclose punishments, just allow to clear the air and have a definitive answer on it

Howluinb31153 · June 9, 2022, 3:35pm

Reiterating on wanting the stance to be shared publically and not just silently. Please.

anon26938153 · June 10, 2022, 5:20pm

Agreed, reading this thread has confused me so much I am not sure what the actual admin ruling is now

Crossedfall · June 10, 2022, 5:23pm

There hasn’t been a ruling. You all should be pretty familiar with our process to know that we provide fairly comprehensive responses to these reports when an actual judgement is made.

This report is large and subsequently requires additional effort/time to process. We ask that you continue to be patient.

Howluinb31153 · June 10, 2022, 5:33pm

apologies, my answers were made mostly because haliris sounded definitive, i’ll know for next time

Haliris · June 11, 2022, 2:44pm

Sorry about the lack of transparency, things didn’t go as planned on my end obviously. I should have communicated that but had near 0 visibility regarding my availabilities these past few days.

Regardless, here are my conclusions in different parts.

Cap and HOS

Hos distributed his gear roundstart. While rather insignificant regarding game balance, it is still a minmaxing mindset that isn’t really appropriate for players acting as crew. Be aware of that and try to find IC reasons at least. I’m sure you don’t go asking for your Boss’ uniform at your job.

Now regarding the reported unwarranted raise to Red Alert.
Here are the contextual logs regarding the situation with antags and when the swipe to red happenned.

"Antag datums this round + swipe to red

At roundstart:

||Line 410: [2022-05-28 22:08:14.752] GAME: Tapczan/(Lia Brinigh) has gained antag datum Changeling(/datum/antagonist/changeling)|
|---|---|
||Line 410: [2022-05-28 22:08:14.752] GAME: Tapczan/(Lia Brinigh) has gained antag datum Changeling(/datum/antagonist/changeling)|
||Line 411: [2022-05-28 22:08:14.763] GAME: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange) has gained antag datum Changeling(/datum/antagonist/changeling)|
||Line 411: [2022-05-28 22:08:14.763] GAME: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange) has gained antag datum Changeling(/datum/antagonist/changeling)|
||Line 424: [2022-05-28 22:08:21.330] GAME: NaughtyPope1/(Pennywise) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 424: [2022-05-28 22:08:21.330] GAME: NaughtyPope1/(Pennywise) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 425: [2022-05-28 22:08:21.922] GAME: IridescNET/(Triplock Jenson) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 425: [2022-05-28 22:08:21.922] GAME: IridescNET/(Triplock Jenson) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 428: [2022-05-28 22:08:22.426] GAME: Dr. Nonnoob/(Leads-The-Crew) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 428: [2022-05-28 22:08:22.426] GAME: Dr. Nonnoob/(Leads-The-Crew) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 429: [2022-05-28 22:08:22.429] GAME: DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|
||Line 429: [2022-05-28 22:08:22.429] GAME: DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) has gained antag datum Traitor(/datum/antagonist/traitor)|

Swipe to red happens before any additional midround antags:

[2022-05-28 22:43:27.771] GAME: ShadowSlime/(Rusty Elderson) triggered and Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) confirmed event Red Alert

Additional antags for the round + Ion Storm all after red alert was triggered:

	Line 4603: [2022-05-28 22:43:23.953] GAME: RiqueGamePlays/(Julius Wright) has gained antag datum Changeling(/datum/antagonist/changeling)

[2022-05-28 22:50:03.705] LAW: XeonMations/(B.E.T.A) had an ion law added, as follows:"ANYONE THAT SAYS ANY CURSE WORD IS HARMFUL AND MUST BE ELIMINATED WITHOUT CAUSING COLLATERAL DAMAGE". Source: Ion Storm.
	Line 5873: [2022-05-28 22:51:56.771] GAME: LeleniowyKurhan/(Tony Sealis) has gained antag datum Changeling(/datum/antagonist/changeling)
	Line 6636: [2022-05-28 22:57:21.170] GAME: FleshGordo/(alien larva (518)) has gained antag datum Xenomorph(/datum/antagonist/xeno)
	Line 7801: [2022-05-28 23:05:14.980] GAME: Psionic Tarrasque/(Hayden Bonk Positronics) has gained antag datum Lone Operative(/datum/antagonist/nukeop/lone)

Rusty’s reasoning:

[2022-05-28 22:41:17.066] SAY: ShadowSlime/(Rusty Elderson) (priority announcement) "We have confirmed the presence of both changelings and enemy agents." (Bridge (152, 138, 2))

[2022-05-28 22:42:51.897] SAY: ShadowSlime/(Rusty Elderson) "Actually, since we&#39;ve confirmed it, let&#39;s swipe red." (Bridge (152, 138, 2))

Aden’s Reaction:

Line 4477: [2022-05-28 22:42:19.933] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "syndies, lings." (Brig Control (204, 129, 2))
	Line 4516: [2022-05-28 22:42:37.838] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "authorizing Eguns to be distributed, and dragnets" (Brig Control (204, 129, 2))
	Line 4571: [2022-05-28 22:43:11.380] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "rog&#39;" (Brig (200, 127, 2))
	Line 4627: [2022-05-28 22:43:33.328] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "red alert, armory free" (Head of Security's Office (217, 151, 2))
	Line 4681: [2022-05-28 22:43:55.415] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "syndies, and lings" (Armory (208, 133, 2))
	Line 4701: [2022-05-28 22:44:00.582] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "cap ordered to swiped red" (Armory (208, 133, 2))
	Line 4837: [2022-05-28 22:44:48.854] SAY: Tamumus/(Aden Finlay) "god" (Security Office (207, 152, 2))

In short, I agree that the raise to Red Alert and subsequent militarization of Sec wasn’t warranted. While Security was facing difficulties, the Station as a whole wasn’t threatened at that point. I’ll expand at the end of my post.

This part of the report is accepted

Greed Yamato
Greed Yamato was a security officer reported for general shitsec behavior.
They tried to arrest the clown and then the lawyer.

Logs

First, the clown who was evading arrests with shoves and such. Greed switched to punching and harmbatonning in the middle of it.

Line 279: [2022-05-28 22:14:15.834] ATTACK: Thefallout/(Silent Night) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) with into Brian Warren (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (137, 127, 2))
	Line 339: [2022-05-28 22:15:29.271] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) with onto the reinforced table (table) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
	Line 364: [2022-05-28 22:15:42.867] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (135, 129, 2))
	Line 365: [2022-05-28 22:15:44.787] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) with onto the reinforced table (table) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
	Line 366: [2022-05-28 22:15:48.399] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 93)  (Central Primary Hallway (135, 129, 2))
	Line 367: [2022-05-28 22:15:48.599] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (134, 129, 2))
	Line 374: [2022-05-28 22:15:51.283] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (134, 129, 2))
	Line 375: [2022-05-28 22:15:52.831] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 87.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
	Line 376: [2022-05-28 22:15:53.185] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (135, 128, 2))
	Line 378: [2022-05-28 22:15:54.390] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 80.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (137, 129, 2))
	Line 380: [2022-05-28 22:15:54.887] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) with onto the reinforced table (table) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
	Line 382: [2022-05-28 22:15:55.741] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 73.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (137, 129, 2))
	Line 383: [2022-05-28 22:15:58.808] ATTACK: The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) has shoved Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (135, 127, 2))
	Line 384: [2022-05-28 22:16:00.273] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 66.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (134, 126, 2))
	Line 385: [2022-05-28 22:16:01.157] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 59.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (134, 124, 2))
	Line 389: [2022-05-28 22:16:03.766] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 52.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (133, 120, 2))
	Line 397: [2022-05-28 22:16:16.679] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has stunned The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) (NEWHP: 52.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (134, 122, 2))
	Line 398: [2022-05-28 22:16:16.808] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has attacked The Cat Master/(Brian Warren) with stun baton (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 44.8)  (Central Primary Hallway (134, 122, 2))

Then the lawyer who decided to intervene, Greed put them into crit:

[2022-05-28 22:43:08.981] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) (NEWHP: 7.3)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
[2022-05-28 22:43:10.190] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) (NEWHP: 0.3)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
[2022-05-28 22:43:11.244] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has punched DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) (NEWHP: -6.7)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
[2022-05-28 22:43:14.381] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has kicked DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) (NEWHP: -17.2)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))
[2022-05-28 22:43:22.050] ATTACK: Luumasaan/(Greed Yamoto) has handcuffed DumTheDum/(Dumi Kambi) (NEWHP: -17.2)  (Central Primary Hallway (136, 129, 2))

We can see in the logs that they had a pattern of trying to arrest resisting crewmembers by punching or harmbatoning them into submission rather than using their stunbaton, or their flash, or their pepperspray, or litterally any other non-lethal physical techniques like shoving/grabbing or bolas.
Needless to say that this is indeed a breach of Space Law and SOP, which was adressed by the HOS who rightfully demoted them after hearing how the arrests happen.

Yes, the clown and lawyers were being annoying and resisting arrest for no IC reasons. I would have overlooked some punches here and there. However, we can clearly see a pattern that is exists either due to incompetence or straight up malicious intents to ruin others rounds.

this part of the report is accepted

Spindel Craic

Spindel was reported for allegedly trying to unlawfully perma and then gulag a convict when lavaland wasn’t safe.
However, logs are conflicting as it appears that Space Law was taken into account. The convict was allegedly a repeat offender that faced escalating sentences culminating in permanent brigging.
I cannot really investigate this further without the convict’s perspective, which I don’t believe is gonna be given to us considering how long this report has stayed open.
The only log that supports the claim is the very one that incited it, hearsay at best:

Line 5449: [2022-05-28 22:48:46.842] SAY: Chuck bungus/(Spike Burton) (DEAD) "spindel wanted to gulag leads, HoS told them they cant use gulag because there are swarmers there and spindel said &#34;the hell I cant&#34;" (Lavaland Wastes (52, 79, 5)

I can only interpret logs so much. In the absence of the victim’s perspective to shed more light regarding what transpired, I can only reject this part of the report.
This part of the report is rejected

Regarding Alert levels

The people posting in this thread made this aspect of the game much more complex than it really is. For it is an IC matter at its core, like the rest of SOP. We only ask of the players to have it in mind, and for the people playing command to uphold it as command members have to insert at least a minimal degree of professionalism in their RP.
There are no “case by case” rulings in which raising alert levels would be fine. Such endeavour is unpractical and fruitless as covering every single possible situation is simply impossible. I believe it is due to this that the thread derailled quite a bit.

The different alert levels are already defined in the wiki:
Green = normal operating procedures.
Blue = Elevated alert, extended security prerogatives as listed in Space Law.
Red Alert = Martial Law, security is militarized and acquires more or less all statutory self-defence presumptions when using lethal force.

As someone playing a character in a commanding position, you should ask yourself what would your character do in response to certain threats and if raising the alert level is truly necessary. Imagine that your character will have to be subject to an audit for raising to Red, will they be able to explain themselves or not? If they can’t, then it may not be the right thing to do as there is likely no IC motivation.

The limitations in place regarding the use of lethal force is to try and protect RP from people looking to game the antags. As such, raising the alert level to Red in the belief that it gives metaprotection to just go dunk on the traitors with a shotgun is wrong.

I believe that this is what happened more or less in this round. As the Captain doesn’t elaborate on why raising to Red is necessary despite the threats being manageable at that point, even from their perspective. Turning the round into a TDM with only one team playing.

You have to properly escalate before using lethal force, and the alert system in place doesn’t allow you to bypass it.