Isy232 Note-Rediscussion [WilsonPH]

Title: [CKEY] banned by [Admin’s CKEY]

CKEY:
Isy232
Admin’s CKEY:
WilsonPH
Ban Type:
Note, High severity
Ban Length:
None
Ban Date (YYYY/MM/DD/):
2022-12-18 18:37:26
Round ID:
View admin remarks does not tell me.

Ban Reason:
Took an almost full toolbelt near roundstart as a Chemist, he then proceeded to use the tools to upgrade his own machinery. Later on proceeded to hack into Atmospherics and take the Atmos gear to fix the air in medbay, although with the approval of CMO and HoP-Acting Cap. Got assaulted by two brainwashed people with a fire axe, got the axe into his own hands and beat the two assailants to death. Hit the first one 8 times after they died and the other one 3 times after they died, which significantly slowed down their revival.

Appeal Reason:
I wish to discuss more on this issue to further my understanding of the rules. Our ingame discussion was lengthy but still somewhat rushed due to the round ending and needing to be delayed.

Additional Information:
I’ll take this point by point.

Took an almost full toolbelt near roundstart as a Chemist, he then proceeded to use the tools to upgrade his own machinery.

Yes, I did.

However notably, I did not take insulated gloves despite them being available.

The upgrades performed were swapping out the small beakers in the chem master with large ones. And I would have brought over a cell charger if I hadn’t been the only chemist so was able to use both chem machines. Tools were also needed for chemical grenades, which I was selling “saviour” grenades to security. Voice activated sorium+lube grenades.

I’ve previously had talks with staff over the summer, once school started I stopped playing. It was accepted norm that if you had use for a majority of tools, taking a toolbelt for convenience was not powergaming, provided you stayed away from things like insulated gloves if you had no use for them. It was normal for myself and other chemist players to grab a toolbelt near the start of the round for the many uses we had for tools and convenience it provided. I don’t think the powergaming rules have changed recently, so I’m not sure why enforcement has changed.

From a rules perspective:

You should not be seeking gear you have no roleplay justification for having

Justification: Toolbelts are a very convientient way to have access to the tools required to perform my job more effectively. I needed a majority of those tools so for convenience I took a belt.

  1. Whether or not you do something should be based on whether or not it makes sense for your character to do it.

As mentioned before, a toolbelt is a very convenient way for my character to have access to tools that can be needed to perform my job more effectively. I don’t believe I should have to ask engineers to swap the cells in chem machines, swap the beakers in my chem-master or work on my chem grenades.

  • This includes preemptively seeking self-defense items “just in case”. Or acquiring insulated gloves or tools without a valid IC reason as someone not employed by Engineering.

I had an IC reason for aquiring tools, which I did.

I did not have an IC reason for aquiring insulated gloves, which I did not.



Alright second point.

Later on proceeded to hack into Atmospherics and take the Atmos gear to fix the air in medbay, although with the approval of CMO and HoP-Acting Cap.

Yes, I did.

However this was only after the CMO had requested assistance from engineering 10 minutes ago and constantly declaring medbay to be non-functional.

I informed the CMO I would be taking actions into my own hands and got approval, as well as the Captain who opened EVA for me. It was then that I got an EVA suit, got insulated gloves and hacked into Atmospherics. I was not suprised to see all of the atmospherics equipment completely untouched, clearly no effort had been made by any engineering staff to attempt to fix medbays air. So I took all of the equipment I thought I could use and headed over to fix medbays air.

Wilson mentioned that this shift wasn’t lowpop, which I agree with, there was a decent number of players. However I dont think anyone was in atmospherics this shift, as seen by the completely untouched gear and the fact we had no response for 10 minutes.

I don’t really see how any of this is problematic, I had approval from all relevant authorities for my actions. From a character sense of view, it wouldn’t make sense for me to immediately set to repairing medbay from the call of damage, thats an engineers job. However, given 10 minutes without a response, I think it is wholly reasonable to take matters into my own hands. From lowpop rulings, if nobody is playing a job, others may do that job as needed. While it was mediumpop, nobody was in the atmospherics department at the time.



Alright third point.

Got assaulted by two brainwashed people with a fire axe, got the axe into his own hands and beat the two assailants to death. Hit the first one 8 times after they died and the other one 3 times after they died, which significantly slowed down their revival.

Yep, I think it’d be best to explain this one from my perspective.

I’m working on fixing medbays air. The backpack firefighting tank has run out of water, so I’m looking for a water tank in the hallways. Suddenly, a lizard shoves me, takes the axe and begins slashing me. The moth friend of the lizard begins attacking me with a welding tool. I was just minding my own business and suddenly am wordlessly attacked by 2 people with powerful weapons in the central hallway.

I try to run away. I run towards medbay, hoping the unfixed air will protect me from the 2 assailants not in an atmos suit or some security will be nearby and come to my aid. I run into medbay lobby and they chase me with the fireaxe, which the lizard had been throwing at me and picking back up multiple times.

I reach medbay lobby. I am severly injured with my health at a red state when I get lucky and get a chance to live. The lizard slips on a broken glass shard, dropping the axe, which I pick up. After obtaining the axe, they still keep trying to attack me. Now that I have the weapon, I am able to kill both of them. I was not exactly counting at the time, once they went down I put a large number of slashes into both of them to ensure they were dead and not getting back up.

I then surrendered when security finally got there, gave my side of the story and was released.

We had a discussion around escalation policy. Wilson accepted the argument they had clearly tried to at least crit me, as the defender who had tried to run away, I could escalate 1 level higher and kill them both.

The problem was I’d slashed the moth 8 times and lizard 3 times after both died respectively.

I never intended to prevent their revival, I made no efforts to move the corpses from medbay lobby where they died. The extra slashes slowed it down, but ultimately that just made the surgery take longer

From an in character point of view, it was totally reasonable to go a bit far given the context. Most people not trained for any sort of combat, like my character, panic under these situations. Given these 2 nearly killed me, being in full panic mode, its understandable my character would not want to risk them getting back up to finish me off.

From an out of character perspective, I was somewhat panicked. I thought I was safe in the halls and suddenly get shove stunned and nearly murdered. I wasn’t exactly in a situation where it was reasonable to count the number of hits I put into both of them or pay attention to the text window where the deathgasp emote would have shown up. Notably the moth went down first, so I was focused on watching the lizard who was temporarily out of range while I slashed them.

From a rules perspective, kill escalation specifically notes that I do not have to take any measures to see them revived. It leaves open the question of if I am allowed to prevent revival. Therefore I dont see why unintentionally increasing the time it takes to revive them is a violation.



A non-antag chemist with the atmos hardsuit and fireaxe, slashing 2 people to death isn’t exactly the greatest look.

I dont want to fault Wilson here, a decent part of our discussion happened after the round ended so things were somewhat rushed. Not helped by this really being 3 separate incidents. Wilson went through each point and after determining it not to be ban worthy moved on to the next. Then left a note and restarted the round. I think this was the right call, just look how damn long my own side of this discussion was.

If all of these points are still found to be noteworthy, I’d ask to maybe lower the note severity from high considering nothing was found to be banworthy.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

5 Likes

I was present during this round and this is a reasonable request.
Is bumping this note down to “Medium” acceptable to you?

Apologies for if this is annoying.
However I would like for the 3 points to be evaluated.

I’m still somewhat confused by the rules around here.

Should I never take toolbelts near the round start as a non-antag chemist again?
Should I never do engineering’s job with the captains approval due to there being nobody in atmospherics?
I get the extra slashes aren’t great behaviour, but is it really OOC issue worthy?

Given I haven’t recieved reasoning for why these actions I think are fine within the rules are against them, I don’t really see how I’m going to avoid breaking them again.

I’d much prefer the first 2 points to be dropped given my understanding they are okay behaviour.

Tools are literally the first bullet under “Do not seek/acquire items that have no relevance to your job without an appropriate IC reason” the rules.

The question to ask is whether what you did violates “Let people do their own jobs.” or not, which having done it at roundstart generally does violate in past experience.

1 Like

I had an IC reason.

Swapping beakers?
Thats not part of normal upgrades. The science protolathe IIRC cant even print large beakers. This is not someone else’s job.

Is moving a cell charger into ones workplace also someone else’s job?
I notice botanists doing it consistently as well.

To say I was “upgrading machines” leaves out the part that I only swapped some beakers and brought in a cell charger. I wasn’t taking anyone else’s job.

4 Likes

Note: Will be on holidays for the next week or so. Please don’t expect any punctual responses.

In return I wont expect any from anyone else.

1 Like

I’ve reduced the note’s severity and edited it.
Please let me know if this seems better to you and then I’ll finish processing this.

Took an almost full toolbelt near roundstart as a Chemist, he then proceeded to use the tools to upgrade his own machinery.

I still don’t really have a clear answer on this point. I assume a toolbelt, grabbing a cell charger and swapping cells/beakers in the machines is fine.

Otherwise, I’m perfectly satisfied with the edited note. Thank you for working through this for me.