[Fronsis] Noted by [Megaddd]

Ban Appeals Game Appeals
1

CKEY: Fronsis

Admin’s CKEY: Megaddd

Ban Type: Note

Ban Length: Permanent

Ban Date (YYYY/MM/DD/): 2022-10-27 04:43:18

Round ID: Unknown

Ban Reason:

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Appeal Reason:
Alright i know this is a two year old minor note but upon seeing it and discussing it for a bit i realized that i don’t think it should be there in the first place, i don’t see what ‘‘incident’’ is being recorded with this note.

I do remember this round, i was either an Officer or a Detective and as it says, i already had my suspicious and leads against the Janitor and i did a legitimate skill issue where instead of adding a Comment to their Criminal Record or to their Charges i accidentally sent them a fine(which as the note says i promptly fixed) but due how fine works the janitor got a PDA message that probably said ‘‘You’ve been fined X for: Possible ling’’ and i remember him complaining on radio (and they might’ve done an ahelp after that) so… Yeah, i really don’t see how this led to a note and who knows why i didn’t appeal it earlier given that everything was ‘‘IC’’ and he pretty much gained an advantage from my own mistake.

Additional Information:
While i do obviously understand notes are not a form of punishment but a way to keep record of players actions and that it’s a two year old minor note that probably wouldn’t affect any judgement from an Admin that takes a look at it if they need it. I do believe that in this particular case no note was needed.

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5

This note is incredibly old and no admin will act on such old notes, as long as the player has played afterwards.

I haven’t looked into the logs yet, but “Possible ling” is not something that belongs onto a fine. Nor does it belong into a criminal record, as it’s not a crime.

If this note is purely because of you fining him instead of putting it into their criminal record then I agree with your appeal.

But the criminal record/fine is in and of itself a sign of potential metagaming. Labeling a suspicious janitor as “Possible ling” without any proof of such, is metagaming.
It just depends if megaddd actually mentioned that in the ticket. If yes, the note can be updated to better reflect this.

Apart from that, why are you appealing this now? This note has no impact on nearly anything as it is so old.

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I haven’t looked into the logs yet, but “Possible ling” is not something that belongs onto a fine. Nor does it belong into a criminal record, as it’s not a crime.

Of course not! That’s why i mentioned that i originally meant to use the ‘‘Comment’’ section but somewhere along the lines i probably pressed the ‘‘Fine’’ button and immediatly corrected it, though back in the day if i remember correctly, it was very common to use the Criminal Record section to update stuff like that, i’m unsure if this was before or after the general change of Space Law regarding certain antags.

If this note is purely because of you fining him instead of putting it into their criminal record then I agree with your appeal.

Correct! From my understanding, said janitor player was already quite… angry against me because i was on their tail and when i accidentally did the Fine i remember they screamed it on radio and i assume they ahelped it.

But the criminal record/fine is in and of itself a sign of potential metagaming. Labeling a suspicious janitor as “Possible ling” without any proof of such, is metagaming.

If i remember correctly i did had leads on them due to finding husked bodies with fibers and prints belonging to the janitor and their reactions (probably general hostility or refusing to co-operate) were something that raised an eyebrow and put them as the main suspect of being a Changeling based on relevant Security training to identify certain Antagonists alongside the relevant evidence.

Apart from that, why are you appealing this now? This note has no impact on nearly anything as it is so old.

Yeah, i figured as much it would not hold any relevance nowadays. Just wanted to give it a shot because i was speaking about notes with other players and even an Admin was confused about it because no real incident was recorded with this note at first glance so if there’s a chance to have it removed, i might as well take it. Specially because that player seemed extremely angry OOC and made me felt it was a bad faith ahelp which really left a bad taste on me, i do apologize since it’s something really old and took me a while to appeal it, i’ll leave it up to you.

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Alrighty. I’ve managed to look into the ahelp logs of the ticket between you and mega.

Logs

[2022-10-27 04:23:26.468] ADMIN: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) checked the individual player panel for Fronsis/(Morgan Strange).
[2022-10-27 04:26:28.368] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): Heya, got a moment?
[2022-10-27 04:26:54.644] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): I do, because i also need to comply about the botanist being mega rude. so let’s exchange.
[2022-10-27 04:28:54.660] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): I just wanted to give you a few pointers about Detective, generally they are supposed to investigate crimes, and security officers/deputies make the arrests and interrogating. I understand you’re shortstaffed though. Someone being rude IC is not an admin issue unless they’re using out-of-game verbal abuse. Also setting a fine and crime on someone as “suspected ling” is really not the smartest thing since people can immediately check their security record.
[2022-10-27 04:31:39.784] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): Of course, first: the fine was a 100% accident, it was meant to be a warrant/status search, i miss clicked the console for doing it too quick, human mistake and i usually never do that.
[2022-10-27 04:32:41.455] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): Thanks for explaining, I’ll deal with the pumpkinhead.
[2022-10-27 04:34:10.648] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): No worries, i think he was a little bit mad, since he went immediatle the route of ‘‘you can’t arrest as det, shitsec, you won’t be a det in the future’’ etc, i did explain why i was able to arrest him, i keep close the investigation gameplay nature of the detective rather than the validhunt route, appreciate reaching out
[2022-10-27 04:34:44.419] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): To avoid issues like this in the future, have your job changed to one that is perceived to be in the right to perform such duties, e.g. Officer/Deputy.
[2022-10-27 04:35:45.285] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): Of course, that seems reasonable specially on low-sec shifts, thanks for the feedback, even though there’s always the option to speak with them, which i did, but it’s true that people lately see a det arresting and get completely mad, so i’ll probably follow your advice
[2022-10-27 04:43:01.970] ADMIN: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) checked the individual player panel for Fronsis/(Morgan Strange).
[2022-10-27 04:43:20.783] ADMINPRIVATE: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) has created a note for Fronsis: Added a fine to someone as “suspected ling” allegedly by accident.
[2022-10-27 04:44:42.870] ADMIN: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) checked the individual player panel for Fronsis/(Morgan Strange).
[2022-10-27 04:54:44.069] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): no it’s a low severity note as a sort of “if they do it again it’s not an accident”
[2022-10-27 04:59:25.756] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): Fair enough, though pardon the reply to that, but realistically speaking if i’m part of the security team i certainly wouldn’t fine someone with their curret charge if we’re looking to capture him since that’s just going to give them a head’s up it’s just a little icky to me considering the hours i have on the server and that i really did a miss click, reason why i think the note came out strange to me.
[2022-10-27 04:59:45.692] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): That’s generally what notes are intended for, making sure someone doesn’t repeat the same thing over and over with an agreeable excuse. It seems excessive but it’s fairly standard to leave a note wherever something happened that would normally be not a good outlook.
[2022-10-27 05:00:31.516] ADMIN: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) checked the individual player panel for Fronsis/(Morgan Strange).
[2022-10-27 05:07:42.768] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): I mean, i will certainly not make that again since it was just a misslick, it’s just strange to me because the situation itself was solved very quickly, and… it’s mostly because the note is for a situation caused by a console miss-click
[2022-10-27 05:08:03.046] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): fixed: Does this mean that if i receive a fine on the future by another sec player with a content similar ‘‘possible traitor’’ i’m free to make an ahelp on that? even if said officer apologies in person to that character that it was a miss-click on the console and it was meant to be a warrant?
[2022-10-27 05:09:18.670] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): Notes are not fun to get, I get it, everyone gets notes when incidents happen unless it’s a misunderstanding. The fine went through, somebody saw it and ahelped it, it became an incident, it gets recordkept as such.
[2022-10-27 05:10:44.533] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): Yeah if somebody puts a fine on you like that do ahelp it because you don’t know it was an accident, and if it’s a mistake it’ll be handled as such, if it were intentional it’d be uh significantly more weird to wrap around RP wise and is one step away from putting “possible valid” in records
[2022-10-27 05:14:31.896] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): Yes, i absolutely agree no one likes to be in the position of the note-taker and i’m not planning on making a big fuss out of it, but as a final thing just for clarification in case you got lost with the mixed-names and ckeys
[2022-10-27 05:15:00.224] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): ‘‘and i got fined’’ aongside whatever else he said on their inital ahelp
[2022-10-27 05:15:24.620] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte)->Fronsis/(Morgan Strange): God jesus christ I’ll edit your note
[2022-10-27 05:15:47.183] ADMIN: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) checked the individual player panel for Fronsis/(Morgan Strange).
[2022-10-27 05:17:15.167] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Fronsis/(Morgan Strange)->Megaddd/(Mebibyte): Apologies for being so ‘‘dense’’, if needed i could move the discussion into the forums, but between you and me, that dude was mega salty and he had plenty of IC RP opportunites to make use of my ‘‘miss-click’’ yet he decided to continue being rude and doing an ahelp about it (which is all good of course)
[2022-10-27 05:18:54.263] ADMINPRIVATE: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) has edited a note for Fronsis made by Megaddd from Added a fine to someone as “suspected ling” allegedly by accident. to After numerous altrications with a problematic Janitor (who was an Actual Changeling), gave them a visible fine for “Possible Changeling” by accident. They were understanding in ticket and didn’t mean to do it, but the Janitor in question had already spotted it by the time they corrected the mistake.
[2022-10-27 05:20:42.064] ADMIN: SubtlePM: Megaddd/(Mebibyte) → Fronsis/(Morgan Strange) : Also the salty player side of the issue was handled.

So, from what I could gather is that the note mega applied, was them trying to recordkeep the fact that you fined the player with something that didn’t belong on a fine, as well as doing so as a detective while there were security officers around, although not many.

There are two issues with the note itself, first and foremost they forgot to add the detective part to the note. And secondly, adding it as a fine is not a rulebreak but just an honest mistake that today would be solved ICly.
Rulebreaks that didn’t result in punishment should be noted down for recordkeeping. The issue is just that there wasn’t really any rulebreak. Or more so, the actual “rule break” from today’s point of view, was not discussed in the ticket; which would be the following:

Today, “possible ling” is not something that belongs onto a fine, nor arrest warrant. You can’t arrest someone over the “suspicion” of being a ling. That’s metagaming.

So to me that leaves two options here, either update the note to reflect the fact that you slightly overstepped your boundaries as a detective (adding the metagaming part wouldn’t make much sense considering it was not what was discussed in the ticket).

Now, this note is so ancient that I honestly don’t really want to bother rewriting it. It would be the correct course of action but I already spent enough time on a note that ultimately doesn’t matter. So, I’ve decided to just get rid of the note. :+1:

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