Fraud talks about bad and conflicting design in ss13 and bee

General
21

Doing your job is literally RP; LRP’s main complaint is that everybody breaks into everywhere instead of asking the person working there to do what they want.

This is for reasons of course:

  1. XD (Yes, this is an actual reason)
  2. You might reject them
  3. They can do it quicker than you
  4. Because it might end up in the person working there starting a shoving match and then accidentally validing themselves.
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22

Fully agree. Doing a job is not rp unless you’re a shrink or lawyer. Doubly so if you’re xenobotany mcpowergame with a side of miner. It is often painfully clear exactly why people play these roles.

23

If you don’t even know what RP is, why do you discuss it?

I pick doctor job.
I play as doctor, doing doctory things.
I have played as my role.

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24

I think after playing this game for 7-8 years I know more than the idiot who’s not solely responsible, but bears a non-zero share of the blame for a noticeable drop in player quality.

These are the rules I operated under for a fair amount of time back in the day:
/TG/Station Wiki - Rules // Revision as of 22:07, 2 August 2015 by MrStonedOne

You don’t need a billion rules to have a good environment, you can have a good community instead.

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25

Doing your job is not rp. At best it is the bare minimum for not being banned from non assistant on MRP. Or called bad if its a minor job.

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26

Doing your job is not inerently roleplay. Doesn’t mean certain styles of execution can’t be considered such.

I can shoot the traitor as security, technically I’m doing my job.

I can patrol the station and talk to the crew to investigate a crime, still doing my job, but also interacting with other players in what could be considered a ‘roleplay’ manner.

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27

Then the both of you are looking for HRP, where exclusively the RP is fun and not what can be done with the game mechanics.

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28

Okay, stop putting words in my mouth for a second and accusing me of preferring RP over game mechanics.

They’re best used to support eachother. RP isn’t just sitting around in a bar.

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29

Demdisco out here to give a live example of mrp being lrp and lrp being nrp.

30

In my personal opinion, the definition of roleplay is fulfilling a role. If you’re doing your job, you’re technically fulfilling the role you came to play. It may not be a heavily invested form of roleplay, but it is still some sort of roleplay.

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31

Ya, that’s my own quote.

The standards you’re after is HRP.
MRP was dropped from Sage and called just RP because enforcing the actual rules would include banning 95% of the players.
“Go to lrp” is the most common message appended to bans.

Don’t think I’m speaking out of my ass; you want the whole kind of thing where you walk up to some traitor, talk and then get into action, not set the flashbang timer to one second and rush him down.

Obviously certain roles prevent this entirely, e.g nukies, wizard, so on and so forth.

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32

I listened to a video about the design of the server Lifeweb (ew). Despite that server’s many utterly horrific parts, it does have a couple of neat design concepts that could be extracted from all the ew (there are things there so disgusting I don’t even want to talk about it).

  • A skill system that adapts as the round is ongoing. Servers like Bay have mechanical limitations on actions. For example, it doesn’t matter how fancy the gun you found is, if you have too low aim or they have too high dodge the projectile will just pass through them most of the time. Expanding this to just about everything allows a server to just ditch powergaming bans entirely, and instead regulate how players behave with game mechanics. This is why CM doesn’t have a powergaming rule anymore because only engineers can do engineering stuff. If you’re not sec, or an antagonist, you won’t be able to effectively use proper military grade weapons. To prevent sec from powertripping with superior combat stats so nobody can stop them, split sec into two departments, the SolGov Military Detachment (who deal with large, obvious threats and loud traitors) and the Department of Internal Affairs (who deal with stealth antagonists and minor crimes). This way if one department powertrips, the other (under a different head of staff) can stop them. Similarly, this helps with tiding. If the person manning a station can operate it better than you, you’re more likely to ask them and less likely to break in.
  • Mood affecting skills, and character flaws. Having high or low mood affects your stats, so you better make sure to do what the game wants you to do. You will not be able to fight or do your job effectively unless you make sure to do things like stay well fed and visit the bar for a drink etc. Powergaming is less of a problem if the way we want people to play is the optimal way to play. Additionally, everyone gets a character flaw at the start of every round, which gives massive mood/stat debuffs if not dealt with. Maybe you’re addicted to a certain drug, or you’re a kleptomaniac who has to hoard a particular item you’re obsessed with. This encourages minor crime that actually makes sense IC beyond “haha greytide funny”, as well as player interaction and roleplay. Including them on a person’s medical record allows a clever traitor to manipulate others.
  • Use antag rep as a stronger incentive. For when you need to really encourage/discourage behaviour, have it affect your antag rep.
  • Allow corruption. Taking bribes etc is good for roleplay, and character flaws provide a nice suggestion for reasoning. Again, this is all designed around creating minor IC conflict so that people who are not antagonists have something to do.
  • Redesign every job around player interaction rather than gathering powerful items. If a job serves no purpose beyond powergaming/killing everyone while antag, remove it (such as virology). I’ll give an example here:

It is the job of the DoIA to gather resources rather than shaft miners, who are removed. They do this by forcing people who were arrested to gather the mats in the gulag. Without overwatch by DoIA officials, escape from the gulag should be easy, thus creating a more interesting time for people who were arrested. Instead of sitting in a 2x3 cell for 10 minutes calling the warden names and hitting the glass, they’re down on lavaland with a pickaxe, being watched by an officer. If they’re creative, they can escape. Say the officer is an alcoholic and you’re a bartender. He doesn’t the skills to make proper drinks. Maybe you can trade some free drinks for a reduced sentence? Maybe you can offer to mix the drinks for him in the gulag and intentionally make it absurdly strong so he passes out of alcohol poisoning? It might not work as well as that every time, but it’s still far better than current mining and current brig.

Edit: Realistically this will never happen on bee of course, it would be at minimum an entirely separate server.

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33

Don’t think I’m speaking out of my ass; you want the whole kind of thing where you walk up to some traitor, talk and then get into action, not set the flashbang timer to one second and rush him down.

The bad guys are allowed to kill us and the rules don’t apply to them.

We aren’t allowed to act like we can see it coming.

It doesn’t matter what you call it. If the traitors are NRP and the crew is LRP or if the traitors are MRP and the crew is HRP. The problem is still there.

As for what we should expect from players, that in itself was one of the points listed. MRP or RP or whatever sounds a lot like a mismash of NRP and HRP lately more than its own thing. It’s no wonder we’re at this point.

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35

The first thing you have to look at is the people playing; most of them are not interested in any sort of RP beyond doing their job (If even).

To me, people doing their job is considered as RP because by doing your job, it means you aren’t doing non sensical things such as running around greytiding and vandalizing. I want you to spend a bit of time thinking about what this means, because doing their job means a lot more than you think for most jobs. The only exception being security.

Now, antags behaving as a little less RP than the server’s intentions is because of how tense being an antag can get. If you’re referring to the method used by the antag, e.g: poisoning their foods / drink vs make them horizontal via e-sword; I’m still thinking about that, because if you’re restricting them to being extremely covert or sneaky, then you’re limiting quite a bit of potential. Again, I’m still thinking about this bit, so take it with a bit of salt.

I just want you to remember the main intention of the game, being fun.
I know that everybody has different types of fun and there’s no way to please everybody, but make sure you at least try.

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36

The first thing you have to look at is the people playing; most of them are not interested in any sort of RP beyond doing their job ( If even ).

People who should be on LRP according to our own rules, but aren’t.

To me, people doing their job is considered as RP because by doing your job, it means you aren’t doing non sensical things such as running around greytiding and vandalizing. I want you to spend a bit of time thinking about what this means, because doing their job means a lot more than you think for most jobs. The only exception being security.

People don’t just pick jobs on LRP to fuck around. They do typically do them, just with more freedom. You speak sound words that have nothing to do with reality, and indeed seem to imagine LRP as some hellhole which it hasn’t been even during the worst days, let alone now.

Now, antags behaving as a little less RP than the server’s intentions is because of how tense being an antag can get. If you’re referring to the method used by the antag, e.g: poisoning their foods / drink vs make them horizontal via e-sword; I’m still thinking about that, because if you’re restricting them to being extremely covert or sneaky, then you’re limiting quite a bit of potential. Again, I’m still thinking about this bit, so take it with a bit of salt.

A much fairer point. Antags are not bad inherently, but the system and rules are currently set up to make them very unbearable and awful on MRP (not weak, awful). If they had more stealth and less murder in their jobs it’d be much better imo.

I just want you to remember the main intention of the game, being fun.

Fun is not defined universally, but you know what is? The server rules and intentions. And I want you to think about that one.

37

You speak as if LRP is LRP and MRP is MRP, but LRP is NRP and MRP is LRP.

On LRP, no matter who picks what job, they’re gonna run around doing as they please.
Every single round I play on MRP descends into chaos no matter what, especially on greenshifts.

Do not say I am wrong, and I know I’m right because not even you guys the admins agree on what the fuck is going on. Do not try to claim that the current standards are being followed.

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38

The chaos on LRP comes from lack of experience combined with deliberate sabotage combined with lack of positions to deal with things. People on LRP pick jobs to do those jobs on LRP. They can fuck around and have fun, yes, but they still do their jobs. The few that don’t are the exceptions. I main LRP. There is no way that I’m wrong about this unless I am clinically insane.

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39

Every LRP main has to be a bit insane to stay there, but that’s OK I think

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40

To be fair, to even consider playing SS13 you have to be insane.

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41

Yeah getting rid of objectives would be nice.

1 Like