Fizziz banned by Ivniinvi

CKEY: Jager122

Admin’s CKEY: Ivniinvi

Ban Type: Server ban.

Ban Length: 1 week.

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 2021-09-13.

Round ID: 32659

Ban reason: “General LRP behavior, mass messaging weird questions to the entire crew.”

Appeal reason: Allow me to give you some context as the ban reason is very vague. Honestly my only crime was making crude jokes over PDA messages of which I only made three. After a good while of not messaging the admin Ivniinvi contacted me to talk. Ivniinvi claimed that it was against the rules to make people uncomfortable and since my jokes were supposedly making some people uncomfortable, I was breaking the rules. I would claim that I obviously did not disturb people as all of them forgot about the messages very quickly after receiving them and Ivniinvi did NOT receive an ahelps so, evidently people were not bothered enough about it to take it up with admins. The only person who was truly annoyed by my messages was Ivniinvi herself as she took her own initiative to punish me speaking on behalf of all the extremely uncomfortable people.

But how do you determine what makes people uncomfortable? Does this only apply when the content is erotic? Does it count if the person was not trying to make people uncomfortable? Is it against the rules to be provocative in any capacity? The rule of “you cannot make anybody uncomfortable” is terribly vague and open to interpretation. When should an admin punish for such actions and when shouldn’t they? There is no strict definition that can be easily followed by everybody, as everybody can make others feel uncomfortable without the intention to and one person’s uncomfortable situation is another person’s paradise. Uncomfortable is a very flexible point of view which makes it easy for somebody to make a mistake and have trouble understanding were they went wrong.

I have asked a lot of questions, right? Well, I posed some of these questions to Ivniinvi in an effort of understanding what I did wrong, how I broke the rules and really how the rules work. Invniinvi either could not communicate the answer properly or flat out refused to answer directly as way she was vague and indirect with all her responses (not specifying what was wrong with my messages after being asked etc). Not only did she refuse to properly explain why I was getting banned or how I was breaking the rules, she got increasingly angry throughout our conversation (at one point BLINDING my character) for the crime of wanting to understand the rules better.

This all built up until I mentioned that if nobody ahelped then obviously people were not really that uncomfortable as if they were they would take it up with admins; she was unable to argue her points effectively and out of frustration she landed me a harsh 7 day ban. During my conversation with Inviinvi I was polite, courteous and did my best to treat her with respect. I did not feel the same way about this admins conduct towards me, and as I calmly made my points with no disrespect towards Inviinvi, she gave me the harsh ban out of sheer frustration from a failure to communicate.

I do not doubt that there is a chance that what I did was wrong but given this context and the fact that I have done this many times before without warning from admins makes it reasonable for me to claim ignorance. 7 days is very harsh and I have seen people (including myself) do much worse things than banter in the PDA messages and get much lighter sentences. I have been playing on beestation for the longest time, love it and try my best to get along with my fellow players; if I did break any rules I don’t think it was 7 day ban bad and I also don’t think that having a discussion with an admin about the rules should be a pathway to getting in further trouble, especially if you are being polite and treating said admin with respect.

Thank you for reading this, and if I offended anybody I apologize.

1 Like

Ivniinvi reason was simple

What kind of adult with a job, thats not mentally impaired, that send all of their colleague dirty jokes and weird question like you? Yes, now we are 18+, you can make innuendo to people that you know for sure wont take the joke seriously, but to random ass people? And no i dont want to be messaged shit like that, evenmore from a random ass person that i dont know.

Youre lucky you didnt get insta gibbed, you can get instantly round removed if you rp break now

Asking random people about nipples sure are normal and not weird at all… Thru pda messages no less.

The only in-game thing I did was remove your PDA cartridge.

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Did anyone message your character in-game saying they thought you should stop or if they didn’t like what you were sending?

There are also all the jokes on feet that i hear from time to time.
It sure weirded me out orriginaly and was a bit uncomfortable but i don’t think being uncomfortable is the fault of others.

And as you can see for all the feet jokes nobody ever reported anything, so this is very unjust that these dirty jokes are ok, but others are not.

You can’t get comfortable with something if you don’t bare the incomfort while you get used to it.

Yeah you just sent haha random messages. when i play as Lawyer i advertise myself with PROVE cartridge not spam people with “moth feet or lizard feet” and most other Lawyers too.

What you did was LRP even if it didn’t make people uncomfortable, i can believe that ivniinvi could’ve made a poor communication and failed to explain your wrongdoings but that doesn’t negate your LRP.

“I did this many times before and didn’t get banned” or “people get banned less for worse stuff” are both non-excuses.

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My point is not that “I did not break any rules”, my point was that I did not understand what I did wrong, tried to talk it out politely with an admin which only resulted in my character being blinded and me being banned.
You can explain what I did wrong now, but that is not the point. You failed to explain what I did wrong in the moment. How can you expect me to respond “yes” to “do you understand?” when you both refuse to explain and are getting increasingly angry and rude
Even from the responses I have gotten most of my questions have gone unanswered.

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There is no in-game (to my knowledge) reason for why my character should have gone blind unless an admin interfered. Even if you did not blind me your conduct was very obtuse and you displayed an unwillingness to explain or understand.

I feel like Appeals or Reports like these should include the offending lines (maybe in spoilers for sensitive people). For the simple reason that people just reading these threads can get an understanding of what is now still over the line with the new rules.
While those that were in the round know what is talked about, the rest is left wondering whether the discussed jokes just included the word “nipples” or it or was some real extreme stuff, making it even harder to understand where that border to “uncomfortable” is supposed to be.

I believe that you were blinded by an Insanity artifact from Exploration, though I haven’t checked logs yet. As I am a moderator, I cannot process any appeals. Additionally, I was asking for the opinion of multiple full admins throughout the ticket, and they agreed on my response.

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Your ckey is wrong in the OP, did you copy paste someone elses ban appeal instead of using the template lmao? You weren’t blinded by Ivniinvi either, all they touched was your PDA. Kibana’s cutting off logs for some reason so I’d have to do an in-game pull to be 100% on what did but it’s probably the changeling blind stinging people or the artifact.

Anyways, I believe the ambiguity is because the ban reason changed from what you were initially bwoinked for, and is what me and winter endorsed in discord. This 100% falls under LRP.

As for making players uncomfortable, this falls under rule 7.
Rule 7, be excellent to each other, has this under it
Content that is not explicitly erotic as defined under rule 6 but still makes people uncomfortable is prohibited.

The line is not exceptionally clear (to me at least) because bee going 18+ is a new thing and there isn’t much precedent to work with. But regardless, if an admin/mod tells you to do something, you should go with what they say, contest it on the forums later, especially for something like this which has discretion involved.

Just because other admins agree with you does not necessarily mean you are right Ivniinvi or justify the way you conducted yourself. It has been brought to my intention HOW I broke the rules now, but a lot of this could of been solved earlier, but you either failed to explain or did not care enough. This is just some feedback for you to reflect upon as it would be better if admins and the people they are talking to can both communicate with each other to reach an understanding.

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Hey although i agree with most of the things you are saying stay focused on you, even if you may be right criticizing admins should me made a bit more calmly.
You sound a bit too condescending in your comments, but it may just be me seeing things.
If not try to cool off a little, it will help your case.

As far as bans are concerned, yeah it kinda does. You aren’t the one that gets to decide whether admins are acting appropriately or not.

This server is operated by a team of staff that keep each other in check. If you disagree with staff on an issue they collectively agree on, you’re pretty much choosing a hill to die on.

This is true on any server, regardless of how morally right/wrong they are. Disagreeing with a collective of staff is never going to go your way.

So you admit a server can be on the morally wrong even if a collective of staff is also in this wrong? Ruko, I was talking about right and wrong, no matter how many people believe 2+2 is 5, it will always be 4 regardless. I believe you are talking about winning or losing really; as a collective of admins can misjudge a situation and punish somebody un-proportionately , but this does not make them “right” in their actions, it only means they got their way.
At the end of the day the staff team are only human, not infallible nor should they be treated as such. This is what I ment by

as just because other admins agree with you does not “necessarily” mean you are right, even it boosts the chances that you are.
Throughout this appeal and while I was getting banned I have only tried to understand what I did wrong. Being told “other admins agree with me so yeah” while not offering any other suitable type of explanation is not satisfactory.

This is true, I do not run the server and cannot tell you if an admin is acting the way they are supposed to or not. I am however, fully capable of judging the way a admin conducts themselves the same way we are able to judge the way anybody conducts themselves; which is all I have done to this point.

2 Likes

I feel my point has entirely missed you.

You’re in the wrong place to debate the philosophical morality of the situation with the admins here. Such a place does not exist. Trying to lay claim to the moral high ground while insisting you did nothing wrong when told what you have done is wrong will only result in being removed from the community.

Don’t be more of a headache than is worth dealing with was the point I was trying to get across, that is grounds for being removed and has been grounds for it before.

I did understand your point, much more than that I am very familiar with it. However you did phrase it as if “right and wrong” were synonymous with “getting your way”; as you responded to my “does not necessarily mean you are right” with “yeah it kind of does”. This way of phrasing it made it seem as though you believed being right and agreement with the collective were one in the same, and during my reply I even state that I thought you are referring to something other than this.

I probably went a bit overboard on what is really a slight miscommunication so I apologize.

I have not claimed I have done nothing wrong at any point during this appeal in fact at many points I say that I believe I have done wrong

I have only stated that I do not understand where I went wrong and that such things were not explained to me.

Sorry about the delay, I think everything has already been gone through and ruko is right, this isn’t about “morality” and is more about the standards of the server as set by the host and headmins.

As for the ban length, you have a recent LRP note so this actually does fit within our guidelines. There’s also concerning stuff in your recent say logs too.

TCOMMS: Fizziz/(Prometheus Alexopoulos) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) “Imagine being a catwhore.”
SAY: Fizziz/(Prometheus Alexopoulos) “imagine being a catwhore”

Because of that, I think this ban is fine.

The ban will stay. Low roleplay is being weeded out, and while the suspension is harsh, it is needed. Command players should roleplay more than others to encourage the behaviour, given they are in a high position of meta-power.

Sending inappropriate messages will lead to other players doing the same behaviour if it is left unchecked.

Cat hatred is an old gimmick… what about roleplaying an atheist and debating the chaplain?