Discussing Demotion

General
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So I saw Markus write this and I was frankly concerned:

Not because of what he wrote but because I had this happen to me just yesterday.

I was playing roboticist as Circe (I have random job enabled for her) and after making a couple of medbots, gifting them to medbay and noticing other scientists were off elsewhere I decided I could try doing the new nanites.

I went to the RD and asked her if I could do nanites instead “because like, I don’t know how to make mechs”.

She instantly grabbed me and pushed me back into robotics where she started printing ripley parts.
And I said “Just because I don’t know doesn’t mean I WANT to know”.
Queue a discussion over what the job is and stuff she then grabs me, takes me outside and tries to steal my ID.

I run and weld myself inside robotics.

I grab the book and start speedrunning reading it.

The HoP comes and refuses to demote me because I told her the RD tried to take my ID away without asking.
And Given that I was finishing a mech right at that moment the RD looked like a fool.
She was clearly a bit OOC angry and argued with the HoP, who then, in a wicked twist of fate decided to demote her instead because she was going on a temper tantrum.

As far as I know she runs out, throws her ID on the ground and says something to the effect of “keep that I don’t care anymore”, now I can’t be sure but I didn’t see her again the entire round so I think she just cryo’d.

Now, why the hell did an IC issue cause OOC frustration?

Shouldn’t we accept demotion as part of THE GAME?

Circe as a character refuses to learn by anyone other than herself, so why did that character trait lead to an OOC problem?

How do we make demotion less about OOC and more IC?
What are your thoughts?

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THIS IS IMPROPER DEMOTION PRACTICE!
There are Three phases to Demotion.

  1. Realizing who the problem is - once you as a head of staff (or captain) realize who’s causing a ruckas in your department’s roster, your job is to either find them or order them as their superior to come to you. YOU SHOULD ONLY DEMOTE THOSE WHO ARE DEMONSTRATABLY INCOMPOTENT, INSUBORDINATE OR TRAITOROUS IN NATURE!
    (In Circe’s case, 3 out of 4, Robots, Androids and a will to learn nanites doesn’t constitute sufficient grounds for “incompetence”)

  2. The ID - Once you’ve found the who in question, there are three notable things that could happen.
    A. you order them to hand over their ID and they comply, you are their superior after all. You process their demotion or let them off with a warning. all is right with the world.
    B. They refuse your authority. PROCEED TO PHASE 3.
    C. You find them shitfaced plastered and on the ground. Just take the ID and haul their ass to your office for demotion. If they wanted to keep their job, the wouldn’t be getting wasted on company time. they’ve got no say at this point.

  3. Call SEC - You as a head of staff are both busy and not equipped to round up rabble. You have a pocket-pistol and zip-ties but thats for getting John grey out of your department chop-chop like or heaven forbid Cindy-kate rocks up carrying a plaque looking for your ass.
    Inform SEC of the person to be demoted, inform them that the subject has violated Space law by committing insubordination (checking wiki… that’s a code 211) and that they are to be hauled off to brig, once that’s settled they should call you up at some point and tell you to haul your ass over A, after you’ve demoted them, let SEC worry about anything your former subordinate gets up to.

(A or they’ll be letting them go with no demotion processed, if you let that timer run out happen, congrats you’ve earned it)

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Of course we should. People should generaly seperate IC and OOC.
But, people arent perfect (far from it). If you’ve got a plan for how you want your round to go, and someone comes and takes a big fat shit on that plan - i think its understandable that people sometimes get frustrated OOC. People arent always emotionaly stable. People playing as vaguely disguised self-inserts instead of proper characters doesnt help either.

Insert generic spiel about trying to be nice to each other.

In other matters - if your boss tells you to do something your job can be reasonably expected to do, and you dont - that is insubordination, which is grounds for demotion. Which, mind you, can totaly be perfectly IC. The general guideline of “try not to be an asshole” always applys, but in no way is anyone besides heads of staff (and sec) expected to always be obeying SOP. You should have some IC reason to disbey ít, but thats not super hard to do if you can do basic roleplay.
Just, y’know, dont salt OOC about the consequences if you choose to.

Calling the HOP for a demotion is a definite skill issue for heads that dont know they have their own departmental access console which can demote to assistant.

And yea, like was already said its a good idea to have security present when you expect resistance. Easier said then done in my experience, but definitely a good idea. The PTSD is good enough to take someone out if you get the drop on them, but its pretty dogshit so no good for chasing someone or dealing with someone thats actively resisting and knows youre comming.

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Semi-Guilty.

Insubordination in Egg-head land. Honestly an RD ordering a scientist is almost a joke since how often do RD’s ever really have a proper grasp on who’s doing what department side?

Pretty sure I’ve ordered more Eggheads around as a miner and as the Head of SEC than some RD’s.

Still Insubordination can happen and as a RD, if a scientist refuses to follow the simple order of “DESIST THIS LINE OF RESEARCH” then honestly they’ve earned that mark of shame.

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Just because the RD’s you’ve seen are like that doesn’t mean anything, what lloll said applies as the SoP itself which goes for every Head, you said it yourself lol it’s their job to supervise the department and keep tabs on what their subordinates do through the shift, if they do it or not it’s a different issue.

Circe as a character refuses to learn by anyone other than herself, so why did that character trait lead to an OOC problem

That depends on how good you roleplay it tbh, not many will realize your character is like that if you don’t do RP that gives the other an idea of it, and even then that trait it’s certainly expected to cause issues but with good RP it helps, can’t speak about your RP since i didn’t saw that character.

Tbh not many RD’s are fans of roboticist doing nanites(idk why, separate issue) but some of them still think you should’ve made mechas and that’s it, hence why the demotion and tantrum happened, you would need to keep an eye in the future for similar cases since by the rules you’re required to do your job since you’ve been trained for it(other wise why would NT hire you on that specific job?) And could lead to some headaches, in this case it kinda makes sense for you to have the option to go nanites but most players will read your “i don’t know how to make a mecha” while seeing your job id of Robo and would certainñy raise an eyebrow

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Yeah, I’m just thinking about the various hours as a SCI gaurd and the dead-silence that is usually the department’s coms. I’ve seen alot of RDs who treat the job as “Scientist with Command access and Acting captancy if the HoP isn’t around”, sitting around in Xeno-bio instead of managing the department so the concept of an RD running the department, keeping up to date with subordinates like a CE or HoS is a funny thing to consider from my perspective.

Why Kalavi Lumen is not usually:

  • an Engineer
  • a Doctor
  • a Chemist
  • a Virologist
  • a Scientist
  • a Roboticst
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Continuing to being nice about it and showing by example.

Many times my comms as captain still go ignored or simply people aren’t responsive. Even when directly called upon.

I don’t grudge anyone nor I do try to get them demoted unless it’s a pretty extreme case. But the few times I demoted someone usually that someone did cryo. And that sucked quite hard, because that was never my intention to begin with.

But if as roboticist you assembled another AI and a warmech both without any authorization no cause for it, without being an antag, just because a positronic brain asked you to, then… it is quite hard to not demote you. And if you haven’t been pretty uncivil or rude about it, I have no problem assigning you to another department instead than dooming you to be an assistant for the rest of the round.

But it is quite a radical change of the rhythm of your round, like dying.

So unless you’re particularly mature/stable or you have lived it enough times to grow some thick skin about it, it is almost guaranteed you’ll react badly to it.

So because no one in the world can enforce maturity or calmness upon others, the only other thing that’s left is to led by example and let them grow enough thick skin to overcome it!

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I’m not gonna lie, one of my gimmicks is to be a medically terrible Paramedic.

We’re talking Smoking on the job, In-frequent handwashing, un-sanitary surgical enviroments.
I haven’t played Paramed alot, but I’m surprised it hasn’t gotten me fired.

like HEY CMO, Moth-o-medical-malpractice here, are you really going to stand for this unprofessionalism?

Sure the patients walk away fine or I have to dump it on an actual doctor but SERIOUSLY COME ON! I’M PRESENTING THE LOW HANGING FRUIT HERE!

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Arbitrary mandatory demotion time from CC. See it as a negative antag roll. At random CC will request a specific person to be demoted. All without admin intervention.

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Whenever I demote someone I will offer them an alternative job elsewhere. If it is severe it will be things like Janitor or Cargo Techie.

Being simply “Demoted” is degrading, putting them as Assistant is better if you can’t get them an alternative job.

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I think this is more a fault with the mindset of the other player.

Taking “I don’t WANT to learn” as an OOC thing rather than IC.

If she had answered anything like, “I’ll teach you.”, “you have to”, or anything else, the situation would develop, I would eventually ask her to return in 5 minutes after I’ve read the book.

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This is a mindset problem.

its “I WANT to play this role” not a “I WANT to RP”.

If you join the game just to do science or botany or whatever… are you really roleplaying?

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You certainly left out a lot of information

  1. I did ask for your ID, i admit i tried to just snag it off you off instinct, it was my first demotion that didnt involve security, but after you pulled away i DID ask.
  2. you told me you were unwilling to learn how to do your job even when i offered to teach you and when i asked why you signed up as a robiticist for NT if you didnt want to learn how to do your job you told me you were assigned your job randomly, which is OOC but the only way to respond to that IC is that you were hired improperly.
  3. you started calling me names
  4. you WELDED ROBOTICS SHUT

when i tried to call security to help me demote you when you refused to hand over your ID the head of personnel started claiming that i wasnt allowed to demote you without contacting him first, promoted himself to acting captain came over to my department said i wasnt supposed to call security, argued with me about you, said i should have called security, and then demoted me for arguing with him, because either doing my job and demoting you or disagreeing with his decision is “unprofessional”

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Most people take demotions personally even if there is IC reason. Also lord forbid you demote someone with a group of buddies. Just not worth the hassle unless you made the ultimate fuckup .

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I mean, you signed up to manage Sci which almost entirely entails “ensure the nerds aren’t traitorous bastards” with a side of "know what form of egghead they’re doing so that if they are traitorous bastards or just plain incompetent, you can help clean things up before an ERT engie team needs to be called.

If I’m not mistaken, Sci is imfamously the one department where 4 eggheads show up and say “I’m going to do X” and hide in the apropreate lab doing that for roughly 1/2 the round concocting some flavor of whatever that lab specializes in, rivaled in this aspect only by Viro and Genetics.

You as an RD most likely (A) have 40 hours dedicated to what is likely at least two of those labs and in that 40 hours must have experienced (A) just how an RD operates and how they often or to the degree of effect they utilize their granted powers of management.

Unfortunately RDs as of current are either stuck with the established attatude or are PART OF that attatude that those who que into the SCI department roster are there to have fun with the labs full of toys and are doing a good job so long as they’re getting upgrades applicable to the running of the station (B)

(A Unless of course you got those 40 hours of Sci as an Explo, yeah you can do that, I COULD que in to the RD role but I fuckin don’t because 38 of my “sci hours” are Explo crew. B At least until the update where Explo and Miners start hauling chunks of unknown space fuckery into proximity of the station for them to poke at as part of their job!, THEN, THEN THEY SHALL KNOW FEAR AND DANGER! HA HA HA HA HA)

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You can tell someone is new to the game because they are playing Head of Staff.

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I didn’t promote myself to captain, I was the captain (acting captain, as a HoP).

And about contacting me first, this was a relatively LowPop round (14~ players) and if you’re going to demote the only roboticist we have, then it’d be nice to let somebody know.

Your whole attitude and behavior was really aggressive and mean. Again, you tried to take somebodies ID, that’s a crime.

Demoting somebody in the first fifteen minutes of a round because they offended you slightly (if even) is also very uncool

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The fact it was Lady Geneveve doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Did you really have to throw a issy fit over not having it your way?

1 - You asked AFTER you tried to steal it. The amount of things I said and the amount of thing’s you say are at very different amounts.

2 - I ICly suggested I didn’t WANT to learn. And I don’t see why getting a random job should be just an OOC thing. I can do all jobs properly.

3 - Doubtful. Circe is a teenager, only thing she says is heck.

4 - Yeah, was saving myself form the thief RD.

You were not unprofessional because you wanted to demote me. It was a RUSHED decision. You didn’t give me like a “do X or get demoted”. Conversation went. “I’m assigned a random job.” “that’s nonsense” *try’s to take away my ID.
But aside from that.
You were unprofessional in how you conducted yourself.
And yeah, Circe did build that mech as fast as possible to spite you.
That got you angry and you got in trouble.

Everything would have ended if you had said WHY you wanted to demote me to the HoP.

“She said she can’t make mechs.” - But shes making mechs now. “Oh well, alls well with the world”

Also I was an antag this round :trolleybus:

PS: Also, just an aside.

I fucking hate when people grab me wordlessly and start doing my job for me when I say I can’t do something.

Don’t do that.

Sometimes when I say this its a lie and its just to see what HAPPENS.
Its FUN to some times act dumb.

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When I play CMO I pick a random scrubs color depending on how I feel and order everyone to wear the scrubs. If they do, I pay them a large sum of money (200-500-1000 depending on pop) and if they don’t I nag them about it and if they still refuse I demote them for not following orders. People like to throw a fit over it but when their boss offers them an extra month’s salary and the order was just to wear green and max their sensors, they don’t really have a leg to stand on. Any department besides security “obey your boss for 1k credits” challenge (it’s literally 1984, they won’t do it)

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