okay but I don’t care about the warden? Alex was detective.
I don’t care if I was arrested, my point is that he shot me without caps approval and not seeking one while I was in warden’s custody. This is just simply self antag.
The word “kill” isn’t an order, and even if it was, you shouldn’t be following corrupt orders.
Now, in response to @Ruko:
I agree that the actual mutiny is IC; that’s not the issue here. The detective murdered another security officer who was in cuffs. This is more about the inherent shitsec rather than the mutinty itself.
Did you read the logs I posted in addition to the ones Archanial posted? A lot more was said than just what Archanial posted in his logs.
I’d act differently, and be asking more questions about the situation especially considering what the HoS had been guilty of in that round, but I have no way to know what’s inside the detective’s head or how much of that he knew. Saying he thought it was a mutiny is more than plausible, and he was ordered to kill them by the HoS in addition to the HoS shouting for a lengthy period of time for help beforehand. It can only be seen as “Not actually a mutiny” with the full scope of information presented in the thread, not necessarily from detective’s point of view within the moment of the incident.
If I had been present in the round, I would have ruled this IC. Mutiny/Insubordination (especially on the scale of detaining your CO) leads to messy conflicts as those without information are forced to choose a side when the person in charge is issuing orders. “Just following orders” is a valid excuse within an RP environment in most cases - this is why we hold heads to high standards, and by extension why this HoS was banned for being incompetent. Insubordination in the face of shitty command is acceptable, but not required in most cases.
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Archanial is involved and I feel that’s set him to be biased, but Hangy is not involved and also specializes in Security, but still disagrees. Not to mention the other players in agreement that this is an issue.
I’m not about to reject the report while there’s so much opposition in the thread, including two other admins even if I think one is biased. I’m more inclined to think I’m missing something somewhere.
Hangy is not an admin and Archanial was killed by my actions so of course he is agitated, or else he wouldn’t of written the report. Im thinking we almost need a headmin ruling on this whole thing so that we know what to work off of. How many people have been banned from listening to their head?
There’s a chain of communication for an execution that the lowest part can’t see- the executor, the HOS requesting, and the captain giving permission. I, as the executor heard that HOS said to kill them, I follow my heads orders to do the execution, believing he had got cap permission because as of yet I had no reason to believe he was a bad HOS. We killed cuffed traitors, as far as I was aware this was a griefer so why would we perma him or demote especially if HOS said to execute
Headmin rulings are for “Yes, finding a new and different way to grief is still griefing and bad”.
From the context of the round, everything was a clusterfuck. The HoS was banned for being shit and provoking conflict.
I don’t really care about the actions of a sec officer that was split two ways.
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Join the mutiny against his department head (HoS is incompetent)
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The HoS is acting in good faith, and anything questionable I do by their orders they are ultimately responsible for.
Overall, this was a bad situation to have gotten into, with no real way out. The players don’t have a birds eye view, nor do they have the benefit of hindsight.
Given that the instigators of this incident were banned, and that the rest of the behavior by the other players didn’t seem to be malicious, I would be find with closing this player report as inconclusive.
What happened wasn’t good, but I’m not sure if it rises to the level of admin intervention.
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I have read the logs you posted, and this only furthers to reinforce my point: this is MRP. A HOS shouting “Kill” with vague reasoning shouldn’t be the reason you gat someone, especially if you have them in custody. Again, I’d be ruling this as IC if it had been during actual combat, but this was after he was in cuffs and in custody. I’ve played security for maybe 100 hours; you never kill a cuffed enemy unless you get Cap’s authorisation, you definitely don’t assume. I learned that the hard way. I may not be an admin, and before this report I had no plans of going back to adminning, but this has reminded me of the abundance of shitsec on Sage. If I go back, it is to clean up this mess.
TL;DR: Alexander had him in cuffs, the HOS’s shouting does not = kill. Learn some common sense (directed to the Detective).
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Wait he was detective?
Lmao thats even worse
Detective has a literal gun and I was just investigating the ruckus- HOS said kill them, I took aim. Good soldiers follow orders
Yeah but technically det isnt a part of sec, they just work with them
oh for fuck’s-
Having a gun does not give you a permit to abuse it.
I was really hoping that security on MRP would’ve gotten past this, but turns out I have to say it.
Lethals should be used sparingly; when there is a chance to resolve something non-lethally, you’re meant to take it.
Good soldiers know when orders are bad. Your logic is flawed; you knew his orders were bad and followed them. Have a backbone, especially when it comes to security.
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Seems like this to be honest. The det should’ve investigated more but when your boss is yelling for you to kill someone, following what they say should not be punished unless there’s clear reasons why they should not be followed.
In this circumstance you’ve got someone who shouldn’t be a traitorous w/e due to being sec however if the HoS is telling you to execute someone it’s a fair line of thought to presume they have cap approval for this, which was questioned, with a response of “kill them now”.
As a late join you don’t have all the facts and info of the round and doing what your boss tells you is good.
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This is where me and Archanial go silent- we’ve told our stories, it’s time for people to interpret
The logic of “Boss’s word is law” is why shitsec are, in fact, shitsec. Shitty HOS’s imprint shitty experiences onto officers, who in turn become shitsec officers. They’re like children in a sense; they need a positive influence. Whilst I agree that following orders is a good thing, there should be a point in which one questions the actual sense of the order; an order to help arrest an antagonist is different from ordering somebody to execute a person without any discussion. Cap’s approval is needed, and just assuming is the worst thing you can do.
Take it from me, I’m a secmain. You don’t assume; innocent until proven guilty.
I’d advocate for a note at the very least.
That’s exactly what I’m pushing for.
Detective is innocent until proven, not assumed, guilty. His story adds up as a bystander caught on the wrong side of an insubordination dispute due to lacking information and orders from the boss, not of an instigator looking to create issues.
Or do you expect every officer to confirm the crimes of every criminal a different security officer brings into brig and asks you to set timer for?
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I personally do but not everyone does and shouldn’t be forced to act like that otherwise literally nothing will get done and fucking no one will play sec.
Apart from the fact that he assumed too much and ended up point-blanking an innocent. Lacking information is completely different from assuming that the cap authorised a field execution; that’s literally the last thing you do as security.
Also, yes, I do expect my officers to confirm the crimes of a criminal, whether it be by eyewitnesses, forensic proof, contraband in backpack; whatever’s easiest.
Though the detective isn’t exactly malicious, he isn’t innocent, which is why I push for a note.
It’s been nearly a week, I think this is the closest to a tiebreaker this thread is getting.