Wilchen banned by colonelsanders

Ban Appeals Game Ban Appeals
1

CKEY: wilchen

Admin’s CKEY: colonelsanders

Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: lol outdated format for lrp and mrp

Ban Type: jobban

Ban Length: week

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 24-11-2021

Round ID: 34270

Ban Reason: As captain, fired 12 “Warning shots” into some valids for having contraband. Claims it was in self defense, but logs say otherwise.

Appeal Reason:
If we look at the rules we can clearly see that the ban is completely bogus

Security Clause: Security officers, the head of security and captain may escalate and skip to lethal force in accordance with Space Law’s use of deadly force . Non-antagonists may not use lethal force against security until after they have used it against you without being baited or forced into using it. This means critting or killing security that is doing their job properly is always over-escalation for non-antagonists. As a non-antagonist, you are expected to disable/bamboozle security and run away or submit to the arrest.

Escalation policy states that as a captain I am covered under the security (and by extension should cover me under rule 2.3 allowing me to hunt antagonists) clause and allowed to puruse antagonists and escalate against them.

Severe Personal Risk - sometimes getting close enough to a target to slap the cuffs on will create significant personal risk to the Officer. Deadly force from range is recommended to subdue Wizards and Changelings.

  • Multiple Hostiles - it can be extremely difficult to detain multiple hostiles. As a last resort if you are being mobbed you may deploy your baton in a harmful manner to thin the crowd. Generally it is better to retreat and regroup than stand your ground.

Because I knew there were two antagonists on my butt I decided to retreat instead of getting shoved and stunned with the contractor baton.
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I do not believe I wasn’t allowed to use deadly force here.

I was bwoinked on a presumption that captain is not allowed to use lethals or engage antagonists despite the escalation policy page(moderated page) stating the complete opposite.
I do not believe I broke the escalation rules here and I request for the jobban to be removed.

Furthermore, why ban me from security roles aswell?
If the captain is not part of security and only a head of staff then why does the ban apply to security aswell?
Makes no sense to me.

Additional information: I request that the say and attack logs from the initial combat be posted along with coordinates so I can prove that the antagonists were following me.

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But captain is not allowed to patrol the station looking for antags if there is security to do that job for you…
They can however assist security in performing their duties if they “see” a crime being committed

The “see” part is iffy since cap hearing about crime is often justification enough for them to come help sec.

Space law is also iffy about Deadly force… ITS only for SECURITY, but not command. HOWEVER! the moderated Escalation policy contradicts this allowing captain to use deadly force aswell as security.

But well deadly force does not mean shoot them untill they are dead. its just using force that may lead to death instead of stuns.

CONCLUSION:

Wilchen The Captain under Rule 2.3 is a head of staff and his department is the entire station

  1. Normal crewmembers are not experienced soldiers. You should generally call for help, rather than intervening directly.
  • This means no valid-hunting.
  • You should generally attempt to flee from combat or dangerous situations.
  • You can be involved in minor physical altercations between crewmembers that result from roleplay
  • Security are always permitted to charge into danger, but should not be carrying items outside of the scope of their job the same as other crew.
  • Heads of staff are permitted to defend their own department and subordinates, but should not be patrolling the station for threats unless there is no security.

AND/OR they can be considered a member of security under ESCALATION policy.

Security Clause: Security officers, the head of security and captain may escalate and skip to lethal force in accordance with Space Law’s use of deadly force . Non-antagonists may not use lethal force against security until after they have used it against you without being baited or forced into using it. This means critting or killing security that is doing their job properly is always over-escalation for non-antagonists. As a non-antagonist, you are expected to disable/bamboozle security and run away or submit to the arrest.

(This needs clarification in wiki its a mess)

HOWEVER under SOP which while not moderated can be used for administrative punishment or IC punishment the captain is not allowed to perform the duties of a security officer unless they “see” a crime being committed and help a security officer OR there are no security officers.

  1. The Captain may not change the alert level to circumvent any laws or Department Standard Operating Procedure Guidelines. The alert level must always be set to the appropriate level.
  2. The Captain is still subject to Space Law.
  3. The Captain is not permitted to perform regular Security duty. However, they may still assist Security if they see a crime being committed.

IN ADDITION: While space law page is not moderated it is referenced in moderated pages

  • Severe Personal Risk - sometimes getting close enough to a target to slap the cuffs on will create significant personal risk to the Officer. Deadly force from range is recommended to subdue Wizards and Changelings.
    • Criminals in hostile environments such as space, fire, or plasma leaks also fall into this category, as do criminals believed to be in possession of high explosives. Ranged lethal force is the only reasonable option in these conditions.
  • Armed and Dangerous - if a suspect is in possession of weapons, including stun weapons, and you have reasonable suspicion that they will use these against you, lethal force is permitted. Although in the majority of cases it is still preferable to attempt to detain them non-lethally.
    • Unauthorized personnel in the armory are considered by default to be Armed and Dangerous, maximum force is permitted to subdue such targets.
  • Multiple Hostiles - it can be extremely difficult to detain multiple hostiles. As a last resort if you are being mobbed you may deploy your baton in a harmful manner to thin the crowd. Generally it is better to retreat and regroup than stand your ground.

VERDICT:

The evidence suggests Wilchen acted within their role as the captain.

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Wilchen Please post all evidence. haha

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image1414×939 274 KB

This is the rough path of where I was followed to, rectangle indicating initial conversation. Which can’t I can’t prove myself until the logs are posted. /shrug.

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the contractor tried to hit the captain first with the contractor’s stunbaton and hit the catwalk instead and after that the cap started running and shooting

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I am aware of this report however it may be a couple of days before I can pull logs to deal due to work. Have let the other staff know if this.

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So, whilst I understand the argument is getting into “but this is muh job.” direction I’m going to ask a fun question.

Did the captain at any point in the round attempt to get the station’s objective completed? Overseeing the operations of the station is under the purview of the captain, and the captain should be coordinating an effort to see the objective of the station is completed.

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Howdy! I’ve been told to put my side of things into this, I got a ticket about captain randomly dumping lasers into some traitors, simple interrogation from all sides while I look in logs to see what sparked the conflicts (traitors say they didn’t do anything to initiate this, captain says it was self defense). In these logs is appeared the traitors (only evidence of them being syndicate is a contractor baton) they appear to not like the captain being in their presence when they tell them to leave them alone, where captain refuses to back away safely before attempting to dump 12 shots into them, while they were trying to speak with the captain. I wasn’t sure this was the case so I had another admin (Aeder) look through the logs to confirm my suspicion, and they said they agreed.

Another note, the captain did not do anything related to the station objective from what I saw. They were mostly acting as an officer with AA just from their say logs. (I don’t have logs currently so ill hope Aeder/another admin posts them soon. Sorry for the wait!)

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This is not relevant to the ban at all.

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Actually it’s quite applicable to determining if validhunting is applicable, as it demonstrates that your intention as captain is to do more than just hunt da valid.

In addition context does need to be looked into, as Captain’s sop states “The Captain is not permitted to perform regular Security duty. However, they may still assist Security if they see a crime being committed.” So based on that is a possession charge worth starting to shoot? If they’re not chasing you then I’d say that none of the use of deadly force section of space law applies as there’s no intent, nor apparent hostility.

I’m going to just copy a few little snipits:

Captain SOP: "The Captain is not permitted to perform regular Security duty."
Captain Job Page: " Do not involve yourself when there is somebody else available to do the job. Why have a Head of Security if you’re going to involve yourself in every security matter? If there isn’t a head for a specific department, promote a new one. It will make your life so much easier."

The captain is the head of heads, and is not a member of security. Which would be a reasonable justification in its own right, at least in my mind, to say that Rule 2.3 does not provide an exemption to the captain, although it may provide leniency within reason.

tl;dr: Examining whole conduct as captain establishes if Wilchen is just using cap as HOS with extra access. Captain shouldn’t be gunning down people over possession of contraband. And I’d need to see logs if there is any reasonable explanation to if there was a use of deadly force rule applicable.

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As captain youre expected to at least try to do it (in the meaning of directing the station to complete it), the station objective IS the captain objective

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Antag gives chase after failing to stun the captain.
captain can lethal any antag that has stun weaponry and is using them.

Preferable is a key word so cap propably had no non-lethal detaining items.

No this ban appeal is not about captain failing to achieve station obj which is not bannable so it is immaterial anyway. Also this ban appeal is not about anything else than cap shot the valid who chased them with a contractor baton and possibly other stun or lethal weapons.

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Enemy of the Corporation

To act as, or knowingly aid, an enemy of Nanotrasen.

Current enemies of Nanotrasen currently include: The Syndicate (through secret agents, boarding parties, and brainwashing specialists), The Wizard Federation, The Changeling Hivemind, and The Cult of Nar’Sie.
Note that this is one of the few crimes where you may summarily execute someone for if they present a significant risk to detain them.

Use of Deadly Force

Armed and Dangerous - if a suspect is in possession of weapons, including stun weapons, and you have reasonable suspicion that they will use these against you, lethal force is permitted. Although in the majority of cases it is still preferable to attempt to detain them non-lethally.

Can’t name a single thing Wilchen did wrong in this situation. Contractor failed a kidnapping, ahelped, managed to get their victim banned because they are unrobust.

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Contractor did not try to kidnap them, and the contractor did not ahelp it. Having contraband does not mean EoTC instantly- using it does. Captain lethalled inappropriately, despite little danger being exposed to them.

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I mean, even using the contractor baton isn’t EotC. It’s assault.

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Captain, and some other person, said that contractor actively used the baton to attack the captain?
Can you finally post the logs from that fight?

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Doesnt the contractor baton stam crit in just two hits?

That sounds pretty damn menacing to me.

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Contractor did not try to kidnap them

Hindsight is 20/20
But analyzing the situation without considering human factor is just insane.
We all make mistakes.

Here’s the facts
I saw the baton
I was being followed
I had no idea about their intentions
I am not omnipotent

Not knowing the other person’s intentions apart from being followed by two what appeared to me suspected traitors, I did the reasonable thing and prevented myself from being ambushed, having very important station items being stolen and being round removed.

Did the traitors die from the “12 warning shots”?
No.

Did I die after the “12 warning shots”?
No.

So I believe the shots served their purpose quite well.

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Will be pulling logs in approx 8 hours when my shift is over.

1 Like