Title: Shadowslime banned by Wilsonph

CKEY:
Shadowslime
Admin’s CKEY:
wilsonph
Ban Type:
Job
Ban Length:
Two months.
Ban Date (YYYY/MM/DD/): 2023-01-08 20:55:02
2023-01-08
Round ID:
42166

Ban Reason:
As a Captain, said “Cool, so one of the non-safe security personel is probably a heretic.” and used the ‘lore’ to excuse his metagaming of certain roles having antag protection. Also proceeded to instantly blow all five cyborgs upon suspecting the AI was malf, with fair reasoning. Extremely argumentative and rule lawyer-y in the ticket. Please appeal this on the forum if you feel like this was made in error.

Appeal Reason:
This ban basically comes down to the question, does command staff know that mind-shielded security personnel undergo additional background research by Nanotrasen? While this does seem somewhat ambiguous, if they don’t now it certainly seems like they did a few months or so ago.

Additional Information:
I feel very odd about this ban, the round had ended, all was well, then I was bwoinked and asked about the initial security comment. After about five minutes, Wilson then moved onto the AI issue, which was whether or not it was actually justified to detonate borgs when the AI is confirmed to be malf, how I could KNOW that the AI could simply unlock borgs, for example, how I could KNOW that a blue APC means that the AI is malfunctioning, how I could reasonably check whether or not the AI is malf after an Ion law announcement which literally uses the word “malfunctioning”, it was just a headache, keep in mind, this was about 20 minutes of the 25 minute ticket. Eventually they agreed that detonating the borgs when the AI is confirmed to be malfunctioning is indeed an OK thing to do, then they proceeded to mention it in the ban note, confusing me further.

Also of note is that they mention rules lawyering, when they wrote in the ban note that they wound up agreeing with me for what what 20/25 minutes of the ahelp covered. Should I have just accepted an additional ban for blowing malf borgs? I would really appreciate it if you could post the entire ahelp logs.

Strangeness aside, the real question is whether or not the captain knows about background checks or whether that even exists and they’re right about this.

3 Likes

Hello, I was one of the borgs that got round removed.

I do agree blowing borgs when confirmed malf but we haven’t done anything Other then Act on Fake ion laws(the gravity gen was harmful) And broke the telecomms apc and blame it on xenos… (And i know it’ll be said but we attempted to save the SM we didn’t cause it)

You said you saw a hacked APC? did you confirm it was hacked? Because emagging a APC will make it look like an ai hacked it. Did attempt to card the Ai or confirm we was Malf? No. just blew all borgs and screamed to cut cams.

Not on the SOP page but It’s unders RD’s on the wiki… blowing borgs is the last Resort. Don’t do it if you had other options… I even clipped it for you.

Personally, i feel like it was the kill the valid mindset since you didn’t confirm. Gotta make us red-text huh?

(Sorry for the poor periods and commas. I’m shit with them)

1 Like

Yes, I was positive. It wasn’t an APC in maint, it was an APC in the AI sat.

It’s in the borg page that you may not detonate them without a valid reason, but if the AI being confirmed malf isn’t a valid reason to detonate then there is no circumstances in which a borg should be detonated ever, and the button should just be removed.

Personally I think there wasn’t enough vaild reasoning to detonate us… You could have RP-ed and demanded a system check or something then blow us if we declined or something?

It’s like catching a traitor with their uplink unlocked… Would you kill that traitor right away? no.

Just think how would you feel if you became a antag and someone found just enough proof to end you didn’t RP and killed you on the spot…?

It was unfun for us borgs since we didn’t get to do really anything and got round ended.

2 Likes

Dunno if this is considered peanuting, but from what I’ve seen malfunctioning AIs generally turn into a red-level threat VERY fast, and locking down the borgs instead of blowing them up usually leads to the AI detonating the console and killing the RD/captain that did it after unlocking their borgs.

I wouldn’t kill the traitor, no, but I probably wouldn’t be returning the open uplink either. You’re basically asking me to basically choose to be stupid and die.

Let’s review the round. Comms are down, the SM has blown, there’s likely xenos loose, heretics are at large, the shuttle is arriving in five minutes, and you are asking me to allow the malf AI to keep it’s small army of killing machines, announce to it that I KNOW that it’s malf, thereby putting a huge target on myself, basically ensuring I just die to explosions, plasmaflooding, or Delta, so you can enjoy being a malfie borg a bit longer.

Let’s review, and say that I do announce to the AI that I’m locking its borgs and going to card it, the only thing that happens is I die at the robotics console when it’s detonated.

A malf AI isn’t like a traitor where you can take away the uplink and they’re reduced. They’re always capable of killing everyone onboard, unless carded or dead.

Yes, it’s unfortunate that you got caught, but that’s on the AI.

3 Likes

These reasonings are why All Malf Ai’s are either Steath only or Murder everyone. No one RP with a malf ai and it’s borgs ever.
I do see your Points and yes we might want to silent you but if you made an effort to Speak to us Like Told one of us borgs to meet you in sec with a bunch of officers Without saying anything and Questioned them… we might actually RP-ed with you.

You got just enough proof then wordlessly blew up all borgs then screamed ai malf when all we did was break two apcs and was still planning our moves.

AI’s can’t unlock borgs if you cut the cam lock the borgs then decon the computer.

Anyway It seems we both have said what we need to say now about the cyborg detonation, we clearly have different views on what should have been done so lets leave it to the admin to decide.

I know nothing of the heretic part of your ban and got nothing to say about it.

Good luck on this appeal. wish to see you back on command soon. Bee always have a lack of command

Ai can restore the camera actually. Destroying it would work however

1 Like

This is a bad comparison, because a traitor with an uplink isn’t valid at all under space law, assuming they haven’t taken action. Legally, command and security cannot perma you, and cannot execute you, simply for having the uplink, though it is some time in brig.

AI on the other hand, is not a person, and does not have rights. The AI does not fall under space law, and is an omnipresent threat, assuming it is malfunctioning. The AI is routed into everything on the station in one way or another.

Which makes it wild that this ever even came up in a ticket at all. The AI can interact with literally everything electronic on the station. Of course it can unlock a cyborg. That’s not even a malf thing, thats just something any normal AI can do.

I strongly believe that if the AI is malf, and you (as a security or command member) are aware of it, pre-emptive action is basically necessary. Does that mean kill the AI immediately? No, sometimes they can be reasoned with. That being said, letting the AI keep its many autonomous hands during negotiations seems ill-advised.

Generally, a borg being blown isn’t real round removal. I can’t remember if a malf borg blowing destroys the brain or not, which would mean its a different story, but if the AI was malf, then you were a threat, and if the AI wasn’t malf, then no harm done except however many mats the shell construction puts RnD back.

Wiki pages are not rule pages, unless it is an actual rule page.

I wasn’t going to reply again i felt the need to on this.

You are Correct and i’m sorry it’s a bad comparison. It was the only thing i could think of at the time… We was only malf for roughly 10 minutes Captain Sees a hacked APC(granted it was on the AI sat after the Ai actually got kidnapped) And word-lessly rushes to blow all borgs. I assume thats Normal for a RP server when there was no reports of us harming people or acting funny?

If i’m Correct all borgs Was round removed I think it was 5 of us? no brain Lived as i said earlier could have. cut cams > lockborgs > take apart computer. Don’t matter how strong the ai is then can’t unlock us. so there was options
(might need a admin to check to see if all 5 of us really got round removed i don’t remember much)

I am well aware. I have a opinion on that but It’ll be a peanut on a someones ban appeal so i’ll shush on that Since you are correct and this isn’t the place for a debate.

Either way, We wasn’t malf for long most we did was break Two APC’s one was grav gen apc since we said we had a grav gen was harmful law(was a lie) and broke telecomms APC(blamed it on xenos).
Spent the rest of the time wondering the halls planning our moves. searching for the RD that the ai claimed was a corgi then Boom.
No warning. none of us expected it. And the only reason we was blown was a hacked apc.

I personally See it as LRP. Soon as a captain notices a Hacked APC so they decide to blow up every borg Because Ai bad(with No reports of us doing anything)… I do agree Ai don’t have rights like crew but come on. I guess the little bit of RP i expect from this RP server won’t happen? I wouldn’t be here if we did something worth being blown up for.

Put yourself in our shoes. Be a borg under a malf ai. Ai hacks a random apc Captain sees it and decides to word-lessly blow you up and round removes you and the mid round antags you dislike So effectly you are out of the game. would be Unfun right? That is my point. We didn’t get to do anything and the only reason was one or two hacked apc’s and the lack of care to check if we was bad.

I might respond again if you quote me since i enjoy discussions. Feel free to do it although I think this isn’t a thread for it

1 Like

Self-detonation braingibs you as a borg if you’re emagged, but being remotely detonated doesn’t.

1 Like

And sometimes it’s okay to play a character with faults and even loose on purpose. From our conversation in a ticket and your posts in this thread… you really do seem to prioritize winning over everything else. That’s not the best mindset to have if you ask me.

4 Likes

I don’t see what rule shadowslime broke… you know, to get banned.
His actions against silicons were entirely valid, its brutal but within his means, so is questioning the legitimacy of someone promoted into the position of security without a NT background check.

Command is a position where you need to be competent to play the role.
Is it not roleplay to be assume a character that is ‘competent’? How else can you garner the respect of those that serve under you?
Infact it is a requirement literally written into the rules under head of staff conduct

“You are expected to be a competent person and competent at all the jobs that work under you”

So is what you are suggesting to shadowslime to be incompetent and risk breaking the rules? What recourse did he have?

2 Likes

Literally metagaming antag protecting

As a Captain, said “Cool, so one of the non-safe security personel is probably a heretic.

1 Like

He merely casted doubt on the loyalty of someone in the security department in character.

The ‘safe’ part probably refering to mindshielded.

How is this an absolute charge of metagaming when its simple process of elimination, you would definitely trust mindshielded characters over non mindshielded ones, whether in character or not. As captain you would definitely know which roles have one.

1 Like

I was observing that round. By the time the borgs where being destroyed, Borgs had killed at least 2 crew members, including spacing the Cook near Arrivals.

Sorry man but thats the definition of metagaming. (Also I kinda wish we could remove all antag protection from heads and sec since we are a server that prioritizes roleplay)

Also of note is that they mention rules lawyering, when they wrote in the ban note that they wound up agreeing with me for what what 20/25 minutes of the ahelp covered. Should I have just accepted an additional ban for blowing malf borgs? I would really appreciate it if you could post the entire ahelp logs.

This is indeed weird if you are telling the truth and might be even a worth a staff report. Generally speaking you are not allowed to defend yourself in tickets, only in staff reports, but if even the admin ended up agreeing with you, then they shouldnt mention it in the ban reasoning at all.

Please just post the ticket conversation, it was honestly extremely odd.

You are literally asking me to break the rules as stated in the wiki: “You are expected to be a competent person and competent at all the jobs that work under you”.

As a bank manager, you would probably know which employees undergo background checks and which don’t. I don’t see how it’s odd that a captain would, especially considering I’ve dozens of other people reference background checks, security personnel, HoSs, other captains, and apparently never get a note for it.

3 Likes

I feel like antag protecting really shouldn’t be something that’s considered meta, considering, you know… NT would want their important staff to have all of their loyalties be to NT, and the Captain would probably be aware of this.

4 Likes

Taken from another thread, but very relevant here.

The only antagonist abilities I’ve ever heard of the station being allowed to border on having metaknowledge of are stealthy traitor uplink items, and only after finding prior evidence that would indicate them. They have a general knowledge that antagonists exist but not their exact capabilities, especially when it comes to “stealthy” abilities.

Performing cavity checks without prior proof of implants has been stopped and was punished frequently until it stopped happening. Checking pens for being sleepy pens and etc. has been over a year, maybe two, since it was okay to just check for these without prior evidence or reports from others.

Your statement sounds like straight up shameless metagaming to me and I have to ask who or where you were told these were the case?

Is it posted in the rules or on an otherwise protected page on the wiki?
Is it something staff has previously stated somewhere to you?

1 Like