This is not a ban appeal (WALL OF TEXT Warning)

Oh No

There’s a lot missing here, considering I didn’t even do anything after breaking in, and considering the break-in was just a door with slightly more access, but I digress, that’s not what I want to talk about.

As the thread title states, I didn’t make this thread to appeal this ban, nor do I intend to appeal it. I made the thread because I believe this is the third time I got banned for the exact same reason, and I want to share my views about it. Who’s listening doesn’t matter, though I thank you for doing so.

This ban, just like the prior ones, happened over the same scenario: I broke into a department, got told to get out or forced out, and suicided. The thing I’ve noticed is that this can seem like it’s just salty gamer behavior or something similarly cringeworthy, when this is not the case. I want to explain my views on breaking into places and why I suicided those three or so times.

First, I want to preface by saying that there are times when booting someone out of a department is completely understandable. Perhaps there are known threats. Perhaps the person really is gaming in the department and just avoiding interaction, maybe they’re armed, maybe they’re disrupting work, and maybe they broke in in a horrible, obstructive way.

But this is not a situation I’d suicide in, nor what happened here.

A while ago, I witnessed and participated a bit in a lovely discussion on our discord - the topic was why some antags get to do their plans and gimmicks, while others just get shot on sight. Without getting into the full philosophy, it’s because some people get given the benefit of a doubt and some do not. This is in one part due to being known players and one part due to not actively gaming in a round. If you can, OOC, trust a person to play an antagonist role responsibly, that’s to say, to improve the round, then chances are you will let them try something super illegal instead of batoning them in the face.

Now, the twist here is that this whole mentality of either giving someone the benefit of a doubt, versus immediately assuming the worst possible scenario, also applies for regular crew just as much.

If I’m in your department illicitly, and I’m not actively powergaming, leaving a mess, griefing, showing hostility, etc, then I have a simple expectation, that being regular interaction. After all, I could have hundreds of reasons for being there that aren’t to do your job or ruin your department.

This is why, if a person steps up to me, and all they can muster is a demand to get out…then I see it as the worst possible insult you can possible tell me in this game. It goes far beyond IC. If you don’t want to give the player a chance, don’t have a real argument to participate in with them, aren’t even calling security if you truly value break-ins, but you instead choose to directly tell the player to fuck off, for lack of better words.

Then that’s not just saying you don’t want to interact, it’s also saying that you don’t intend to give the benefit of a doubt. That you do not trust the person (in this case, me) as a player at all, not even enough to let me stand in the same room as you. Indeed, if you truly feared for your safety in-character, then why haven’t you properly roleplayed and called security? No, instead you give one of the worst ultimatums this game has:

Because there is no possible interaction that comes from repeating “get out” aside from leaving. Either the player is crew, and has to get out of your face, or they are an antag and they tear yours off. It is a complete non-interaction. Anything the player can do within the rules demands that they involve other people, either forcing things on your or just avoiding you entirely. “Speak to command” and “Ask someone else from the department” are what I was told today, and I’ve heard similar before. Except…these conveniently just go around the player who has effectively made it known you’re not worth even acknowledging.

And this is why when met with such players, I have chosen to suicide, not just today but the last few times as well. Not only does seeing this kind of behavior genuinely make me want to stop playing on the spot, but I do it with the feint hope that maybe, just maybe, the other player can realize how petulent the situation is if something actually dramatic happens, instead of them having their way and getting positive reinforcement about it. If I really do call command or go to someone else, then I effectively sidestep the issue. Nothing changes. Even worse, if I just fuck off or cryo (presumably because I’ve already lost desire to play), then that lacks any sort of context to have any effect. The only option I see is just going straight for LOOC argument, which while effective on the surface, is actually a shitter move after a breakin, and feels like trying to meta-justify your presence. I won’t do it.

So if I have to eat a ban for suiciding, then I’ll do it. I think it’s still a better outcome than just doing nothing.

The ban said that I stand by my actions, and perhaps now it makes a bit more sense. Or maybe you completely disagree with me. Maybe I’m in the wrong for not having a monk’s patience when faced with something I hate so deeply, too, though I’ll openly admit my fault there.

Again, this is not an appeal. It’s also not a rant, and I’m not looking for supporters or the opposite. I simply wanted to get this off of my chest, because there’s only so much you can glean from a ban ticket, and because I felt I needed to say it. This is why I’d much rather proper discussions happens here (if any) instead of arguing and the like.

That’s also why the post is so huge. I wanted to explain things in excrutiating detail, so that there’s no way to misunderstand what I mean, having dealt with others assuming I have the worst motivations possible here before.

Thank you for reading.

1 Like

I’ve said it on previous posts on the forums but I personally find it annoying when there’s a (somewhat) staffed department and someone breaks in to grab something instead of shooting a PDA message or asking for someone at their desk. Requesting the item from them and getting it, or do a favour for a favour kinda thing.

To me I see breaking in the same as what your saying

Because I personally see it as avoiding interaction by breaking in and taking stuff. I know people say improv is a lot of “yes, and?” but sometimes it can be a “No, what?” which can still roleplay out or create some IC conflict for a round. And like I said above, doing a “Favour for a favour” can also benefit the other person that could be an antag and it saves them the hassle. And even if the person does just let the person take what they want, there is still 0 interaction coming from it.

I personally (no dig at you here) find that breaking into a department is the same as “Gaming hard” because it feels to me that the person just wants to skip an interaction, do what they want to do and not think about anyone else in the process.

Admittedly 9/10 times the interactions could be “Can I have this item?” - “Yeah sure two secs” - “Thanks, bye”, its cutting out that odd chance of having an actual interaction. Then there’s the fun “roleplay” aspect of, “you wouldn’t break into a co-workers department or office to take their item” because it’s realistically a fireable offence.

It’s a double edged sword. Not every interaction will be bountiful so just seeking to avoid the “small talk” that could actually start something (or even the subsequent IC conflict about the breaking in) by taking what you need and leaving without so much as a “hi” is, to me, for lack of a better word… annoying, maybe rude?

I personally enjoy helping people out, hence why I usually play paramedic or doctor, so that I can do so. So when someone just breaks in to take what they need without even asking I personally see it as “rude”. Not “I think they’re an antag therefore I wish to stop them in their tracks right now” - Moreso I want to call them out on being rude and have the decency to just talk to me.

The only time I wont help someone is if they are outright rude to me IC or they have slighted me somehow. Otherwise, I will most likely give whatever it is they ask for.

Again, none of this is a slight at you, it’s mostly just how I personally feel about people breaking in to staffed departments.

2 Likes

if someone broke into my department and i told them to get the fuck out and they just on-the-spot swallowed an oxygen tank, honestly i would laugh more than anything else. i don’t know if it’s just me or what but i don’t see it as some big travesty if somebody doesn’t want me in their space as someone who doesn’t belong there, especially if i broke in. i don’t connect how people treat me in character to them saying anything at all about me as a person/player. we’re all just controlling our lil dudes and making them talk.

4 Likes

So would I. It’s also not what happened today or before. For this one, the ban snippet fails to describe the situation, notably both listing events that did not happen as well as ignoring events that did (namely, anything I did before suicide). Similar things happen with bans all the time, and it’s a part of why notes are an awful system. Even funnier, the note lists it as a rule 15 break despite the suicide being fully in character.

Likewise it’s easy to assume I got in just to snag stuff because, realistically, that’s what most people break in for. However a look at the logs would reveal that I didn’t actually do anything after coming in and before this took place.

This is consistent with how I play, not breaking in to bypass people but rather for specific reasons, or if there’s no people to begin with. In this case, after seeing miners protesting multiple times, I wished to let them finally confront sci directly. Of course this did not happen for obvious reasons.

It can be hard to avoid unintentional strawmanning here because when I bring a situation like this up, the ghosts of greytiders are standing behind me. But make no mistake, I’m not supporting that behavior, and the opening post clearly outlines as much.

With that in mind I’ll ask you to read it again if necessary. It’s a wall of text for a reason. I’d rather not deal with misaimed points.

After some deliberation, I’ve decided to include an extra bit here, even though the opening post already covers all of this, I will bold it for emphasis:

What determines how people roleplay is not just their own conviction but also how trusted they are by other players on a meta level. This is the difference between security arresting someone with an illegal item on-sight or being willing to hear them out. This is also the difference between actually interacting with a tresspasser, who is not doing anything malicious, or immediately giving them the ‘get out ultimatum’ until they go away. It means that in their eyes, you are there for the worst possible reason already.

i ain’t readin alla that

21 Likes

I did read alla dat and yeah it makes sense why you feel that way.

People suiciding for silly shit is occasionally funny (I did it once when someone broke the jelly donut recipe :doughnut:) but making a habit of it is bad for muh immersion.

Additionally, extending the benefit of the doubt to even players/characters that you don’t know will get you killed and dunked on.

It will also create the funniest rounds you will ever have.

Like when I (the wizard) was mitigated by the HoS not through combat (I trounced the sec/command team previously) but instead the HoS beat me in a game of fucking RIDDLES and on my honor as a WIZARD I then had to fight a DRAGON for him instead.

GOAT round. Had my fill of mechanics, yes. Then also had some hilarious RP and a banger climax to the round.

Wouldn’t have happened if I just killed and beheaded command and sec on sight.

3 Likes

That’s why it is currently, unfortunately, more about who you trust OOC than anything. In an ideal world everyone gets the benefit of the doubt even if they’re a rando/non static, but I feel we’re still quite far away from this. I’ve heard the phrase “dying is part of the game” a lot of times, and I’ve come to realize it’s more about things like this - leting people try things even if it’s risky OOC - than about losing pvp and not salting.

On the flip side, things also used to be much, much worse. I can stand next to a person and speak without them shifting away instantly, this wasn’t possible earlier ;p

My point was that it’s worth extending the benefit of the doubt to EVERYONE, even DESPITE the fact that it occasionally gets taken advantage of.

It’s the prisoner’s dilemma. We’re all better off if we assume the best of each other.

2 Likes

I am a bit guilty of this as well, honestly. I love interacting with new players, especially if they are very new, but I found out that somehow I was intrinsically suspicious of some of them.

Maybe it was because they have shown knowledge of the game; maybe because they didnt want to RP as I wanted them to; maybe because I had an odd gut feeling. But in the end its not fair, they need to be treated like everybody else. It’s a bad habit I am trying to eliminate, mainly because I ended up ignoring new character labeling them as “shitters” only to then realize that they were capable roleplayers.

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