Also I’m like 99% sure this is a shitpost from the “the industrial revolution and it’s consequences” thing which is funny considering how quickly it devolved into people trying to approach it seriously.
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its slightly shitposty, but i do genuinely think that the no antag rule should be removed
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My point is that the current self antag rule creates a blury line between what is accepted within the parameters of the rule, and what might go beyond it. it creates an area where you cant always with certainty say what action would go beyond what the rule allows, and what action doesnt. The general line given is that if you attempt to roleplay, follow proper escalation, and dont round remove someone then thats allowed. But i would argue that if you didnt roleplay, didnt follow proper escalation and round removed someone then that would also be violating the Powergaming/No Roleplay rules. So in essence the commonly provided limit of what isnt allowed under the current no antag rule are the same limits provided by the Powergaming/No Roleplay rules.
That means players who know the server, its rules, and precedent rulings well, and have the confidence to act up to its boundaries, your Fishers and Edward Englishes, act in the way you described, commiting IC crimes and whatnot. But those players new to bee or less confident in their gimmicks dont want to risk going into murky rulewater and therefore dont act out more gimmicky roles.
So i would argue that the No antag Rule doesnt provide any new boundaries to player actions not provided for by other rules, and stifles the freedom and confidence of new or less well researched players. Therefore that should be grounds for its removal
P.S. If what i say is true, and removing the no antag rule gives more players the confidence to try out gimmicks, in particular criminal ones, then that would also be a good reason to neuter Dynameme more, since with more going on in a round a la Blueshift, you wouldnt need Dynamic as much to provide Neuron Activation.
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The fundamental issue is that you think that a greenshift entails only barRP or a job. Honestly thats a terrible way to see the game and speaks volumes on your stance on the issue.
Do you remember that time i dressed up as Violet (and spraypainted my face purple) for the express reason to steal your identity? Remember how you cornered me in engineering? Remember how we then settled on a drinking contest to see who was the real Violet? How I lost and was brigged?
I wasnt antag, I didnt want to kill you or greentext, i did it cause “why not”. I did not break any laws, even if sec ended up being called anyway (for identity theft, duh).
I had fun, I hope you had fun too, and in all that NO ANTAG DID ANYTHING, if I remember correctly it ended up being some lame stealth antagger anyway
You can have fun without antag just fine, and if you cant come up with anything yourself just be a part of the gimmick that someone will 100% have
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The real fundamental issue is how highly people regard those little side content gimicks that hardly matter in the grand scheme of things. and just settle with what we got rather than actually decide to try and make something that may create real roleplay situations or a good game…
(honestly i compleately derailed myself off this topic removing self antag isnt really a thing relating to that but i’ll stop here instead…)
im just so sick of how the only options we got is… be joe basic. incoruptable loyalist angel 9 to 5 or be a gimick clown even outside the role
no systems and insentives to allow and push players to roleplay as real people on a real Corporate owned space station in the middle of practically hell. worthless money that cant bribe a fly or buy shit. worthless drugs. incorruptable pure players who get banned if they think of being nutral towards antags
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No, you don’t need to be actively fighting antags to engage with them. you could produce weapons, medicine, repair, and build bases against all the antags mentioned above.
Even the chef is important in a red alert situation where the food bar and mood boost could mean life or death.
This is all 10x more interesting than any greenshift will ever be
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I think it was me who derailed it so I’m really sorry, this issue might’ve been better if I started a separate thread on it, though I do think the two problems are linked.
On a less I’d argue that sometimes people who encounter ic crimes are in the headspace of “I’m already on my wit’s end dealing with multiple people who it’s their JOB blowing stuff up, why would I deal with this guy who’s doing it ‘for no reason’?”.
At least I have felt like that multiple times when I’ve rolled sec/brig physician.
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I assume you can recall goin to the kitchen/botany/bar during nukies? I play these roles I know what happens 
The fact that you go “Even” the chef kinda gives it away doesn’t it? I dunno.
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It’s not necessary but it’s useful, especially when it comes to nukies. I play chef a lot and having to pump out as much nutrition as possible before the nukies hit is fun.
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it really did it in for me when i watched some feller literally make a weed sauna… 5 people died from overdosing…
sec didnt even bat a fucking eye i just had to revive all of them as they desperetely tried to get themselves killed…
if things were sensible. this could’dve spiraled into a MAYBE somewhat amusing crime plot but no
if our RP standard is everyone being a fucking clown while sec only cares for the valid and not actual crimes. with all of service, 2/3 of chemistry being utterly useless.
then we are a LRP circus in denial
no lets not have the complex to design but potentially deep RP enviroments where people can pretty much stumble into a movie plot guided along mechanical and RP insentives and reworked systems where things arent fucking monopoly money and cardboard
but no
its just derainged lunatics and silly clowns roleplay with some funny ideas that shatter at the first occurance of the sm catching fire or nukies being anounced. that cant drag people along and organically develop stories because they are BASICALLY JUST LARPING
because this is the easy way out
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I can agree on that yeah, albeit it benefits old players a lot more.
I just think the plain removal of self antag would be bad, especially with the state of antag rolls right now.
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well if i would recenter myself back to the same continent as THE POINT
id say removing self antagging would be detremental as is but also not solve your issue or at least not fully… contrary to your belief its not even the only rule that causes all of your issues… its a mix of all the funny rules
validhunting, powergaming the lot
id say
youd want a more open field where players can be a bit more… free to be conflicty… a rework of the rules that creates A CLEAR WELL DEFINED AND EXPLAINED… A PIT OF … here’s how much you can escalate and what you can do and what you cant…
anything here will only have IC consequences…
and then teach sec to fucking care and dispence punishment and give command actual authority and power
(all of the above would require MAJOR CHANGES TO BOTH RULES AND GAME MECHANICS)
(and yes obviously be excelent to each other must remain)
any conflict created by players must cleary be for the purposes of making things more interesting. and not just shitting on players
as i like to say… simple solutions seldom work out the only safe bet is to dig in and cook something big… alas coders and admins are alergic to that notion
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I agree that it benefits old players more, but that could be said for pretty much any gameplay positive change, old players know the ropes and will be best able to exploit new opportunities given. theyre role models and what they achieve is what others strive to be.
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I perhaps agree that a major rule rework is needed, and that perhaps the self antag rule isnt the only issue restricting roleplay. However i do think that it is a major factor and i think the no self antag event should be an indicator of that. Now I am not blind to the fact that a sample size of 1 is not a lot to go off of, and the fact that it was an event with lots of old players definately contributed too. But i sincerely believe that the removal of the self antag rule made players, regardless how much they played confident to gimmick, and willing to view eachothers gimmicks as more than just early game antag prep.
Perhaps a longer period of rounds would be needed to test if that holds up under more regular conditions. But i think the possibility of removing it shouldnt be disregarded.
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oh dont get me wrong… IF that big change that would solve all our problems 
ever comes in. im betting self antagging being wiped will 100% be a major point in there…
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From a heavy sec player stand point I can chime in and say that if sec gets a small chance of being silly they are hated by the entire station for being “no fun assholes”, or because “active threats exist on the station and sec is too busy roleplaying to deal with them”, or my personal favorite,“Sec is too focused on their jobs, rahhh!! >:(((”
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Bee doesn’t subscribe to the LRP/MRP/HRP Philosophy, btw, it’s just “RP”.
Best effort roleplay and interesting gimmicks.
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Taylor Fisher in charge of being an evil guy, just a terrible guy, just an evil, terrible, no-good guy (He’s the best).
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