You should never put up a vote for balance decisions that make people weaker. It’s like asking taxpayers to vote on their tax rate.
In my objectively correct opinion, this is the right direction. Next step should be removing catching thrown items reliably. It doesn’t make sense a regular assistant can catch a shuriken thrown by a ninja.
There’s also no delay for throwing items, I’ve witnessed a macro abuser yesterday throw syndicate throwing cards 5x per second.
Making the crew weaker won’t encourage RP. It will literally result in more preperation and stealth-powergaming than before due to the base state being weaker.
Or death, for those who won’t bother. Because more death seems to be the goal of a lot of PRs I see. Why do so many coders seem to think the crew belongs in ghostchat for most of their round?
Just posting to be clear here. If we want the crew to RP, making the threats able to be RP’d with is a priority.
As it stands these changes (and a lot of similar nerfs I’ve seen) completely disregard that antags (the players) tend to enjoy killing crew and that antags (the roles) often have to kill crew as part of their tasks.
“We’ve made you weaker. It’s an rp server. Etc etc”
=>Dies in one hit from a cult stun, grasp, w/e without a single word spoken
=> Dies in three hits from a gun with no chance to communicate
=> Chased by desword man who refuses to say a word
=> Xeno lol
Amazing RP.
This specific change being accepted is one step closer to the grim reality of crew only existing as cattle for antags to kill.
One should either make the antags also have RP agendas and powerlevels, or step back and take a look at the game they’re coding for.
But you’re advocating LRP bla bla
No. I fucking love RP. I just also have the insight recognize that these are crew slaughter changes, not RP-incentive changes.
There is no “easy way” to learn the game other than just playing the game and taking some losses. And if there is a way, this isn’t the way to go about it. This goes for all of the mechanics and systems in the game. What you’re proposing literally removes what there is to learn, which is what my comment was about.
This is because the game is really detailed and has a lot of nuances. Coincidentally, this aspect of the game is also the main reason a lot of people play this game in the first place. Combat is arguably the simplest part of this game as you literally just have to click until spessmen horizontal. Besides slips and infinite stuns through table slams (which only a handful of people can consistently pull off) there isn’t much else to it. You can’t have a simple, easy to pick up game without having the mechanics and systems of the game be really simple. And having mechanics and systems be simple would change SS13 into something else, in my opinion.
Point is, new players are far more likely to drop the game from the overwhelming knowledge required to play, for example, science or engineering, than they are from the occasional death resulting from a table slam. So I don’t think removing wallstuns would make the game better for new players, but just take away the rare enjoyment you could be getting from a fight that wholely depends on unarmed combat. (which, odds are, you’ll probably lose anyway if the other guy is geared) And again, wallshoves are available to everyone, including the assistant who spawns in for the first time and discovers disarm intent.
I have pretty much never seen the player who gets wall-shoved recover from it unless allowed to by the player that shoved them down or a lucky lag spike occurs.
The Knockdown lasts 3 seconds, and is refreshed every time you get hit by disarm against a wall again. You cannot escape the knockdown unless your attacker messes up, which means you cannot escape them due to the movement speed penalty of knockdown.
The paralyze lasts 4 seconds and while it can’t be refreshed, it can be immediately re-applied after it ends.
Now since you’re trapped in a loop of 4 second stuns, you get about one unarmed action every four seconds. Meanwhile your attacker gets five attacks (0.8s melee cooldown) in that time. If two of those actions are unarmed disarms, congratulations, you’re stuck with no possible chance to escape.
You get this five-hit rotation down and realize you can shove diagonally: congratulations you never have to powergame again because you can win any fight without even needing a weapon. You can even sprinkle in some 36 damage curb stomping action (takes 2.5 seconds) since they’re horizontal!
How few people pull it off is irrelevant, stunlock combat shouldn’t exist in any form and certainly not in the hands of someone who enters combat with no equipment at all. Punishment for bad positioning is good, but potentially lethal punishment just because you stepped on the wrong tile while facing someone who doesn’t even have a weapon should not.
Everyone still has exactly the same wallshove no matter what the wallshove does. This is not an argument for keeping it how it is anymoreso than claiming a pulse rifle is fair if everyone has one.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that the length is pretty insane. Completely removing the stun still isn’t preferable though.
Both of which fall back to the stun time being extremely long. I think a minor tweak to the stun time would be sufficient in addressing the issue rather than reworking it or removing it completely. Just as stun batons were nerfed long ago to not stun in only one hit, I think, with time, this would be a good change for most people.
I did not read like 90% of this thread due to wall of text, just wanted to express that i think it is a good idea, even despite the stun removal, the knockdown being longer is a good idea to still make it viable although i still think x2 is a bit too long. Maybe lower it a bit?
but i do completely disagree with the rng.
Rng sucks giga balls on a game with so much complex mechanics as ss13. You could be extremely amazing at the mechanics and positioning and whatever, then still get fucked and lose a few hours of your time because funny dice roll. It’s infuriating. It’s the reason most xcom players savescum near constantly.
regardint your dnd argument, as a long time dnd player, i can assure you, getting nat 1/20s is fun for like a few months then you start getting tired of suddenly being worthless in combat because you happened to be slightly unlucky.
all i sent has probably been discussed many times and you prob changed your mind but theres like 20 000 words here and i read only the first few posts
If you have the idea in your head that at any point you can turn around and disarm your attacker of their weapon and think that death is the only alternative (which alot of people have been saying about stun removal) Then of course you would try and risk it over nothing.
This also means that Antags have to regard everyone as an active threat and CANT lighten up for RP, when in their mind, at any point someone could jump them and likely from experience have suffered that. Ruko even gave an example of such happening recently
Once the crew stop being open threats and unfairly shut down antags when they shouldn’t really be able. THEN the burden can be put on antag to lighten up and engage in less than lethal means if not warranted (warning shots/threats/wounding). This is likely not the only step… but the first of many for promoting better attitudes.
I still believe that the current system promotes nothing but bad faith plays on both sides
TG adding wallstuns was making the game dumber. Go play goonstation to find out what actual skill based fun combat is like. TG brainwashing people into thinking that “dont stand next to a wall” in a game where the largest hallway is 3 tiles is good game design is absolutely hysterical.
Do you people forget where the term “toolboxing” came from? It came about because toolboxes were a prime improvised weapon most of the crew had access to and readily used to defend themselves. Now its a legitimate option to just spam disarm on le bad who has a .357 magnum pointed at you, instead of utilizing improvised weapons like the game originally incentivized.
I wish. I would completely support a change to rework intents and unarmed combat to reflect that of Goon. However, you can’t just remove one of the only mechanics that resemble something skill-based and call it a day without adding other relevant, strong mechanics. I’ve stated multiple times in my replies that there isn’t much else to combat right now other than clicking people until they’re horizontal, and removing this mechanic only makes combat shallower. Also, within the context of this problem, you cannot ignore wall-stuns being accepted as a skill-based mechanic, as it’s one of the main parts of the PR:
So arguing that it isn’t skill-based only makes the PR redundant. And before you say “balance”, I have already agreed that the stun length is too long to be countered in any meaningful way. THIS PR isn’t the way to go about fixing that issue though, and a simple reduction in the stun length should suffice.
Again, you are missing the point. This PR is aimed so that you aren’t supposed to defend yourself but rather run away which is supposed to foster RP. Which it completely won’t. It’ll just offload the issue onto another cause. Taking a “prime improvised weapon” and fighting against the antag would still be against the purpose of this PR, and since you’d still be nearly as strong bashing someone’s head in with a toolbox when they’re slowed down on the ground, the purpose of the PR would fail. A non-lethal solution would be transformed into a lethal one for no reason. The PR is aimed at reinforcing the idea that you aren’t supposed to fight the antag but rather run away or die.
And if the issue is balance… just decrease the stun length. It’d be way more beneficial than this.
Why big changes only happen/testmerged when i cant fckin play?!?
Well at least its not shit things like monstermos getting killed, and i do hope you also push for medical system overhaul Ruko, its the cream on top in my opinion for better rp around antag.
There’s not going to be much pushing needed. It’s something Bacon and a very substantial portion of the playerbase (to the best I can tell without making a poll) wants.
I just had to go back on my word to finish planning it in a day because god damn is it a lot to plan.
Once the crew stop being open threats and unfairly shut down antags when they shouldn’t really be able. THEN the burden can be put on antag to lighten up and engage in less than lethal means if not warranted (warning shots/threats/wounding). This is likely not the only step… but the first of many for promoting better attitudes.
This is completely false. It will literally make antags kill crew easier and nothing else. You’ve made up an entire player mindset just so you could have a point.
No, making the crew weak won’t help antags rp. Making EVERYONE weak will, along with changing objectives heavily.
As it is, this is just a crew kill change. Another step towards total deadchat barring antags. Granted, this change is far more acceptable than previous iterations because it isn’t fucking RNG.
This is a change that affects everyone universally and not just crew, pretending this doesn’t affect everyone while saying that only changes which make everyone weaker will solve the problem is either disingenuous or you haven’t read the PR.
While it is primarily unarmed crew that don’t know how to follow server rules that have motivated this change, they are not the only ones being targetted by the final version of the PR. This PR hits everyone who utilizes shoves in combat for an easy win, antagonists and security included.
You speak like you can see the future in some absolute form and it’s kind of off-putting. Neither of us can fully understand how any given change will affect the playerbase until it happens. I have my beliefs on how players are motivated and so do you, but neither of us has the ground to assert that only our own viewpoint is accurate.
My viewpoint comes from observing and constantly trying to talk people down who have just had their antagonist round ruined. “Well fuck I guess I’ll just use a sleepypen next time instead of trying to be fun”. It’s not something I pulled out of thin air - it’s something I’ve heard firsthand from antagonist players who feel like they can’t do anything at all due to how quickly they get robusted for doing anything other than highly efficient plays.
=> Change that nerfs unarmed combat.
=> Crew is expected to be unarmed.
=> Antags are expected to be armed.
=> “This change affects everyone”
You speak like you can see the future in some absolute form and it’s kind of off-putting. Neither of us can fully understand how any given change will affect the playerbase until it happens. I have my beliefs on how players are motivated and so do you, but neither of us has the ground to assert that only our own viewpoint is accurate.
I base my posts exclusively on how I’ve seen people play. I have seen how people play for an extended time, therefore I can reference that with things that would change it. It isn’t seeing the future, it’s making an educated guess. What can I say for the rest? I fully believe in my own views becuase they’re backed by observation and analysis.
My viewpoint comes from observing and constantly trying to talk people down who have just had their antagonist round ruined. “Well fuck I guess I’ll just use a sleepypen next time instead of trying to be fun”. It’s not something I pulled out of thin air - it’s something I’ve heard firsthand from antagonist players who feel like they can’t do anything at all due to how quickly they get robusted for doing anything other than highly efficient plays.
I see. And yet, it goes both ways. For every antagonist that died too easily, there’s several crew members that get killed without a chance to say anything. A lot of nerf PRs seem to be in the view that the crew has no rights and that antags need to be catered to. To this day I don’t understand why we’re pushing this mentality on a server like this. We’re telling people that they’re expected to do their jobs and interact with crew, while simultaniously enabling antags to wordlessly kill them easier. Why? Because they get beaten up when they fight? So does the crew, many times. The ultimate evolution of this is antags being able to instantly kill crew if they decide they aren’t RPing. It seriously seems to be what it’s going for. We’ve already had another ideals shift from the crew only being able to fight back if in danger to them being expected to run or accept death. All the while antags aren’t seeing any real changes. Nice. We removed beecoins. Greentext still exists. Nice. We removed one objective. The other one is still going to demand murder half of the time. Not to mention conversion and roundend antags.
It really fucking stinks that the whole “putting antags on a pedestal” point I made many months ago is still a thing. Stop discriminating against crew. Stop telling people that dying is RP. Stop catering to unrobust antags.
Nerfed its ability to fully reverse and kill, not its ability to enable unarmed players to disengage.
In fact, the initial shove results in a 4.5 second knockdown instead of a 3 second one now.
Crew is also expected to run away instead of fighting back. This PR did not affect crew ability to run away in any substantial capacity, only their ability to immediately fight back without at least grabbing an improvised weapon that is, at any given moment, no more than ten tiles away.
Again, who’s making up player mindsets? This isn’t always the case and I’m pretty sure you know that. You don’t need a weapon unless your goal is killing, and this made any antagonists who aren’t armed weaker as well whether you want to admit it or not.
Or do you think we have no players that try to go for stealthy approaches so there is no evidence when they are arrested?
