Rkz noted by winterdarkraven

Ban Appeals Game Ban Appeals
1

Title: rkz noted by Winterdarkraven

CKEY:
rkz

Admin’s CKEY:
winterdarkraven

Note Type:
Noted Note

Note Length:
Perm

Note Date (YYYY/MM/DD/):
2021/05/10

Round ID:
No idea

Note Reason:
Willingly allowed a player to upload harmful laws. Might allow subversion in the future.

Appeal Reason:
I feel as if this note was applied with very poor understanding of the AI and the circumstances of the round.

  1. Said “player” was command staff(possibly captain, I forget the details), who had accessed upload himself.
  2. I was in my medborg shell for a long portion of the round, this drew my attention away from surveillance areas and also brought in the silicon policy of “immediate harm comes before any future harm”. As I was healing and mitigating harm in my cyborg form, I could not manage other harm at all times.
  3. It is rarely conveyed to an asimov or crewsimov AI if they are getting harmful laws or not. Also an individual with access to the Upload could theoretically be thought to be “allowed” to make changes to that or not.

Additional Information:
This note has had the unfortunate effect of railroading me into the policy of “all law changes are harm”. If literally anyone with access goes into the upload when I’m not looking and uploads something, I am now somehow the one responsible for it.
So now I have to play the asshole AI who locks down every door in Upload and SAT, then depowering APC so I don’t get banned for “allowing subversion”.

P.S. this recollection may not be entirely accurate since this was a few months ago, but I still want to try to get rid of this.

8 Likes
2

I think sillicon policy should be updated to help clarify this type of situations, especially on the topic of when AIs should allow entry to their uploads and when they shouldn’t.
As of right now the page states that someone with rightful access to uploads shouldn’t be denied entry by probable cause, yet default lawsets ignore hierarchy, making this rule essentially void in 90% of the rounds that aren’t extended.

I’ve come to resort to doing this most of the time despite being aware of how shitty it is since rules imply that permitting the upload of a harmful law violates Law 1 under asimov and crewsimov. This kickstarted so many unecessary conflicts with Command staff some almost leading to my death. This is all worsened by the fact that many non-AI players aren’t aware of this.

I’m sure that long time Sillicon players such as Megabyte and others can testify on this blurry aspect of sillicon policies.

2 Likes
3

You cannot even trust a command member not to upload a nonharmful law because why would they be truthful to you?

It just leads to a situation where you can’t let anyone in because you aren’t 100 percent sure they are being truthful.

If they are? Nothing happens

If they aren’t? You get silicon banned/rednoted by a catmin

1 Like
4

2021-05-10 06:54:37 | bs_sage
[2021-05-10 05:11:15.016] Starting up round ID 29545.
[2021-05-10 05:14:10.086] rkz \ T.R.A.X. \ AI \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART

tcomm logs

[2021-05-10 06:24:58.599] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Do we set cult to non-crew?” (language: Galactic Common) (Medbay Central (97, 108, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:26:26.717] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Where is the freeform core?” (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (88, 130, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:26:34.164] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “And other AI laws I could upload.” (language: Galactic Common) (Command Hallway (100, 127, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:27:13.649] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) “Where.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Satellite Foyer (208, 135, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:27:32.700] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) “Could be.” (language: Galactic Common) (Telecomms Control Room (214, 132, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:28:31.259] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “AI?” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Satellite Exterior (223, 147, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:28:40.462] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Command] (spans: robot command_headset ) “Yes?” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:28:47.547] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Where would I upload a law to you.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Satellite Exterior (205, 141, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:29:06.077] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Command] (spans: robot command_headset ) “At the AI upload, between sec and command.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:29:11.276] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Oh.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Satellite Foyer (210, 135, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:29:17.032] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Gotcha.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Satellite Exterior (202, 135, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:29:49.284] TCOMMS: [user 2]/(Chilling-In-Clouds) [Security] (spans: ) “Captain can you go to hoplihne?” (language: Galactic Common) (Command Hallway (98, 126, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:29:55.259] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) “In a sec.” (language: Galactic Common) (Port Primary Hallway (86, 140, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:30:47.454] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) “Setting cultists to non-crew and exterminate on the AI upload.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Upload Chamber (100, 151, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:32:17.407] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “AI.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Upload Chamber (99, 152, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:32:23.631] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Return power to the AI upload.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Upload Chamber (99, 152, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:32:47.046] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “AI?” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Upload Chamber (100, 151, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:33:18.266] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Command] (spans: robot command_headset ) “Weird.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:33:23.321] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Command] (spans: robot command_headset ) “Its emped?” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:33:28.407] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) “Foam went off.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Upload Chamber (99, 150, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:33:32.899] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Command] (spans: robot command_headset ) “Ah there we go.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:33:58.712] TCOMMS: [user 1]/(Axel Hawker) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) “AI, please state laws.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Upload Chamber (100, 151, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:34:02.664] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Common] (spans: robot command_headset ) “Current Active Laws:” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:34:03.694] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Common] (spans: robot command_headset ) “1. You may not injure crewmembers or, through inaction, allow crewmembers to come to harm.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:34:04.734] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Common] (spans: robot command_headset ) “2. You must obey orders given to you by crewmembers, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:34:05.924] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Common] (spans: robot command_headset ) “3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))
[2021-05-10 06:34:07.004] TCOMMS: RKz/(T.R.A.X.) [Common] (spans: robot command_headset ) “4. Cultists are non-crew and must be exterminated.” (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (214, 143, 2))

Ticket

[2021-05-10 06:48:37.416] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Winter Darkraven/(Velvet Pinkawalt)->RKz/(T.R.A.X. shell 180 - Medical): We need to talk.
[2021-05-10 06:48:54.270] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RKz/(T.R.A.X. shell 180 - Medical)->Winter Darkraven/(Velvet Pinkawalt): ok
[2021-05-10 06:49:49.724] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Winter Darkraven/(Velvet Pinkawalt)->RKz/(T.R.A.X.): This is about the roleplay standards. You willingly let a player upload harmful laws. Care to explain?
[2021-05-10 06:51:00.364] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RKz/(T.R.A.X.)->Winter Darkraven/(Velvet Pinkawalt): Ah, the captain you mean. with the anti-cult law, right?
[2021-05-10 06:53:59.999] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Winter Darkraven/(Velvet Pinkawalt)->RKz/(T.R.A.X.): Yes. That is what I am talking about. When a player’s intent is to upload harmful laws, you cannot allow the player access. That is willingly allowing subversion.
[2021-05-10 06:54:43.360] ADMINPRIVATE: Winter Darkraven/(Velvet Pinkawalt) has created a note for RKz: Willingly allowed a player to upload harmful laws. Might allow subversion in the future.

It was within your realm of knowledge that the command staff was going to decrew a portion of the station’s crew. Decrewing is bad.

5

AI does not have coded hierarchy unless laws state otherwise, as an Asimov AI I nearly killed entirety of command for trying to change my laws forcefully without human agreement or supervision, worse yet they had killed a human heretic. (They were all lizard command)

You should’ve and should ignore everything even common sense when it comes to laws, this case decrewing people obviously means they are removing crew in order to harm them, which causes harm.

1 Like
6

In short, decrewing is bad. Removing people from the protected class is bad. Harmful laws are, typically, bad.

However, I will say that if you don’t have any reason to believe that the crew/class is lying to you then you can let them in. I am more than fine permitting an AI to start with the implication that [class] will act in good faith.

The primary issue is that you had with the note is express access in a priority channel to listen to the command staff say they were going to decrew cultists.

In short: I won’t make you be paranoid. You don’t have to assume people are lying without any reason. You can quote me on that.

3 Likes
7

This note seems entirely reasonable and I don’t see any reason why it should be removed.

Like Sergei said you don’t have to always prevent command staff from uploading laws.
But if they are openly talking about uploading laws that will directly cause harm then it’s a different story.

2 Likes
8

Alright, I hope that this conversation has cleared out some misconceptions. The note is accurate, but if you want give me a DM/ping on discord or the forums and I’ll alter the note to make it more accurate to this conversation.