You don’t need a deep understanding of git to navigate GitHub. But, even then, that’s why we limit the GitHub channel mostly to pull request actions; since that’s the only thing a majority of people will care about.
While I can sympathize with your trouble navigating the site, I do have to defer to the large number of non-coders who still use GitHub to discuss changes being proposed.
my take here is that plumbing itself should be brought back to its original state, and instead exclude certain ingredients from the factories. Like, say you make it so silver needs to be grinded down/obtained from a chem dispenser, and inserted manually into the factory, while revamping a few recipes to require silver …
you’ve allowed plumbing to stay an efficient source of items without requiring constant micromanagement (thus making it less fun), yet you also make it that much harder for chemists planning to just automate the most op shit available atm.
Also, the problem with med isn’t the plumbing, it’s the fact that 90% of chems are extremely easy to make and heal you fully in the span of two (2) seconds
plumbing is rather balanced on tg specifically because you don’t have insta heal chems & you have the thing i described just above (exclude certain chems from the plumbing system)
plumbing is a good concept, good idea, that, for now, just doesn’t fit with bee properly.
Deleting it would be not more than a band-aid patch imo. But a welcome one until a bigger solution is found (please do bring it back after tho)
You can always make a case, don’t just assume present & future intents.
With a proper chem system whenever it comes (soon tm), a plumbing system could work.
Until then, a complete removal is really not a bad idea
ehhh. As someone who put a shit ton of hours into MD/chem. I only ever used chem factory for synth pipes to the cloner or beside the stasis beds
Even without it… its comically easy to mass produce if efficient with the chem dispensers. I usually finished routines after 30-40m… (basics, advanced, brain, organs, crit, synth)
You should feel blessed that you don’t have fermichem with no dispensers… its practically required unless you want to spend 40m making the same amount of chems as bee does in 10 min (mixing 30u at a time)
No big loss IMO. Bee never really needed it unless chem was AWOL
still don’t 100% understand TG MD myself… but I get the gist… chem I’m more proficient with.
Compressed matter cartridges are trivial for cargo to produce. The roundstart medical budget should on its own be enough to order a few thousand units’ worth of iron and glass. That said, med/cargo interaction is often overlooked. The CMO can order plastic from the medical budget at roundstart and have 50 sheets of it in the ORM in minutes, but how often does that happen?
I see medical struggling without it far more often than that happens. The point about cargo plastic is that it’s cheap and easy, 50 sheets for 800 creds and the only effort it requires is the CMO ordering it and a cargo tech moving the sheets to the ORM. I don’t play medical but there seems to be an issue with doctors wanting to do everything in-department even when it’s significantly more difficult than working with other jobs.
As an aside most departments get good use out of plastic, security for zipties and science for some of their esoteric toys. Even the clown appreciates a plastic delivery. If you have spare cash and there’s none in the ORM it’s almost always a solid purchase.
fair, would always produce a lot at the start for large beakers. If both chem and CMO are AWOL/unwilling… then yeah… worth the purchase, altho as I usually noticed, it was Engi or Cargo that would order it.
Anyway… back to plumbing… more interaction is nice I guess… but chem factories were kinda underused prior… especially with no dedicated space for them on most of the maps. Fland and box being the exceptions (TG moved genetics out of med and made those areas chem, bee hasn’t).
So all this will likely do is make people less likely to try unless something horrific happens to dispensers.
Specifically about plumbing? Perhaps not. About doctors being obsolete and having nothing to do? Open your eyes.
Plumbing was fun at first, but its lasting impact on the game was absolutely terrible for all of the reasons outlined in the PR. Plumbing should have been removed instead of this.
Sleepers are already absolutely terrible in every way, and plumbing only found a niche because they managed to power creep on what was already an infinite generator of every healing chem you could ever need by being able to infinitely produce ALL chems, even the few that gave a chemist an edge over sleepers before.
I made this point in the PR, because the PR brought plumbing down to a level under sleepers
Unlike sleepers, plumbing still produces mobile chems of any type. This is still an absurd quantity of healing reagents that is possible. It’s still an absurd quantity of plastic if you’re going that route. They still automate production to a scale that isn’t possible for someone just using a dispenser, they just also require constant input now instead of being “fire and forget”, which was an acceptable compromise from the standpoint of someone who wanted them gone.
You are way overblowing how “difficult” it is to walk to an autolathe when public ones are available with two stacks of 50 glass / 50 iron. This only becomes an issue if miners aren’t doing their job and miners not doing their job is supposed to have an impact on the rest of the station.
I agree with this (and also your second point), but when the PR was first introduced Ike was still around. Ike was vehemently against removing sleepers in any capacity.
Eh. I’m sitting in the middle on this one. On the one hand, med is already broken enough that a completely torn, burned, shot, bleeding and exploded patient can be completely and instantly restored via mere application of a couple bruise packs and ointments. Chem-factory in that context, would make med even more useless.
But the problem here, is not the piping, but rather that med makes absolutely no sense. Without the chem factory, med is STILL useless because every single god damn assistant is going to use the one bruise pack at med’s entrance and restore themselves to full health instantly and without the need for any interaction with med whatsoever.
Plumbing is a symptom, not a cause. Med IS useless over 50% of the time. Plumbing underlines it, sure, but doesn’t actually create the problem itself. I feel like this commit is just you lashing out, @mc_meiler , which I completely understand, given the hours you have in med, I can’t imagine it feeling good when your job is unnecessary.
But obliterating plumbing is a crutch, and a bad one at that, because when medical IS reworked to the point where you can’t just use magical drugs to fix a body torn into two halves, then plumbing would an actually great addition to medical as a go to solution for “low severity” damage, while medical will do what it is actually supposed to do: Put people back together after extensive damage that you shouldn’t be able to fix by taking some Tylenol.
All things said and done however … Despite how much I dislike straight nerfs and removal without addition of new content … I’ll actually agree with Mc_Meiler that it’s necessary in CURRENT circumstances. Right now med is almost absolutely useless unless the patient in question does something really stupid (radiation and what have you) or is a target for another player, which, despite being a main part of the game, is still a minority of cases. The vast majority of cases is going to be people having simplistic burn from naked/budget hacking and basic brute from PVE/PVP.
I’d honestly prefer a much more elegant solution, such as making damage (AND RECOVERY!!!) gradual. Force bruise-packs and ointment to actually heal 10 points of damage per minute. Add more granularity in damage. Go over 50 brute/burn damage? You can’t go below 50 without surgery/another med procedure. Get something embedded in you? Give a wound which would permanently stamina damage the limb until med fixes it. Your flesh is peeling off because you fried your dumb ass for the 10th time trying to break into Theatre Backstage so you can robust that SSD clown? Make it so you can’t instantly re-grown skin, flesh and muscle by rubbing some ointment into yourself. Give people an actual reason to go to med, instead of gimping a feature which can be taken in another direction. Essentially, make it so that chemistry can’t fix structural damage to the body (which would actually require to ADD said structural damage first. I realize that.)
But. I’ll admit. The whole answer to my above tirade is WYCI. Which, in my case is … Never. So … For all intents and purposes. I wish you’d did this in a different way, mc_meiler, but I understand and tacitly approve of ANYTHING being done at all.
Already factored this PR into that. It will perform this function just fine even with this nerf, and the reworked medbay has no place for zero-maintenance machines that provide infinite potential (even if that potential is slower than other methods)
My biggest complaint about plumbing isnt what it produces, but that it often turns most of medbay into a 1 tile wide hallway with all the shit these factories require.
Which is why I take those back into medbay. Though this still doesn’t matter as they’re maint loot as well.
Plumbing was a VERY major cause of what made medbay useless.
I would see the “INSTANT FULL HEAL (ONLY TAKE 1 AT ONCE)” patch dispenser out in the medical lobby, EVERY. SINGLE. ROUND. People then had no reason to even enter your department, as they can just pocket 6 patches and never worry about damage ever again for the rest of the round.
…You have chem dispensers. Use them. They’re not stone-age technology. Do your job.
Players shouldn’t have access to tools that make their job completely and utterly obsolete, while ALSO making the rest of their department completely and utterly obsolete. Period. Plumbing is a bad concept and has no place here in the slightest.
I have to agree here for once. Med sucks. Port something good like Baymed or the likes. Literally anything.
Though you said it yourself, WYCI. I’m not coding a med rework, but I still managed to somewhat fix the issue at hand, though as a band-aid patch this time instead of the better solution, which was denied by Ike.
A little related to the topic @mc_meiler is the wiki updated now to show the changes made by your PR? i was thinking on learning plumbing and the wiki is my go-to place,i ask so if it’s not updated i guess i’ll have to ask mentors
Hey Ruk, I’m a bit drunk right now, but could you provide some numbers? Specifically, I’m interested into “plausible use”. TL;DR: I want to know if skill can compensate for the hefty nerf. E.g.: We don’t want plumbing to be available from start, and we don’t want it to become something that will replace med as is. Yet, what I’m kind of interested in, is that if a particular player has enough robustness (e.g.: The player knows how to recycle station furniture to procure iron/glass, they can still reasonably convert station resources into a viable emergency solution).
The reason for which I’m asking this, which might not necessarily be completely in line with BeeStation stated direction, is rewarding knowledge and skill. Essentially, I don’t mind powerful mechanics, but I want them to be locked behind skill, knowledge and experience. Could you give me some approximate numbers as to what it would take for a robust crewmember to reasonably establish an emergency chem/plumbing bay with the current system?
Considering the previous plumbing, I’d say that all it would take is about deconstructing half of the bar and roaming Robotics for that extra bit of copper for the occasional tech part you might need. I’d be curious to know the overall impact this will take and whether or not plumbing will still be a a viable solution for extreme situations.
I’m not sure this is the solution, mate. Again, I’m asking you, are you certain that you’re treating this solution logically, in an unbiased manner, or is your med-experience weighing in? Because I certainly can understand that rendering a department completely useless is NOT a good design decision. Yet, I also want to make sure there are ample possibilities to enact full medical treatment without actual med involvement. The reason for this being: Independant actors. Mostly Antagonists.
This is something really difficult to actually pin down, because if you give antagonists more antag-unique medical possibilities, it’s not going to be as organic and natural as the basic med-loop of get hurt, find medkit/tools/chems, figure out how it works, fix. Making med absolutely necessary is one thing, but keep in mind that there also needs to be a robust anti-station way to do things. Now, plumbing is abused by the station just as much as antags (I seem to remember a certain antag on Acacia once mass producing cyanide and mixing that into the piping).
Now, I won’t say that your PR isn’t working towards it, but I’d be curious to see if you have any plans to replace the content you have removed, specifically from a point of view of non-station available medical abilities which can be readily exploited by skilled traitors without necessarily relying on TC (as I believe those should primarily be a tool for the Antagonist to come up with a gimmick and spice up the round).
Of course, if my understanding on how the balancing should be is wrong to begin with, please clarify where I’m missing the point.
The reason I say that it’s a sympton, is because this scenario is only possible due to the absolutely fucking basic medical system that bee has. You can literally be shredded to pieces by carps, but a single bruise pack will repair it. The reason I say that plumbing is a symptom and not a cause, is that if we had a robust medical system which would account for wounds, broken bones, structural damage and so on, then chems wouldn’t nearly be as powerful. TL;DR: Plumbing instantly becomes less powerful if you introduce broken bones which can’t be fixed through chem and need actual surgery. That is not the case currently. We literally can repair someone who was blown up by an IED with a bruise pack. I think that this is a much more egregious problem than plumbing. People build fucking chem factories every round, because chems are sufficient to make anyone into the second coming of Jesus, capable of reviving despite being gibbed. If we needed actual complex med instead of slapping chems to fix everything, I don’t think plumbing would even come into question to begin with.
That’s the problem. I think that using chem dispensors to fix severe physical damage shouldn’t be a thing in the first place. Instead of nerfing plumbing, I think the appropriate direction would be to kill the ability of chemistry to fix structural damage beyond a medium wound. As the examples provided before, having chems be incapable of fixing anything beyond 50 damage would be a start. But other options such as: Broken bones, infections, radiation sickness, mutation/sickness due to infectious diseases (think, rats should actually BITE engies trying to slap them, and if the engie is not vaccinated, rabies should actually be a threat, for example) would be a much more proficient solution. TL;DR: Instead of forcing med usefulness by gibbing chem, force med usefulness by expanding the amount of wounds one can receive.
I genuinely belive that plumbing itself is a GOOD concept, it’s just that for some fucking reason, bee code makes chemistry godlike. Kill chemistry ability to restore people from near death, and the problem will solve itself, all the while preseving chemistry end-game boons. I do agree though that plumbing needs some more oomph when it comes to mass producing expensive chemicals. But then … You can just grab a fucking med-mech and bypass producing meds completely because your chem-gun replicates med for free, considering you can break the laws of physics with cell chargers.
Well tell you what. I’ve recently had to pay for the crimes I’ve comitted. Being banned for two weeks gave me some perspective as I fucked off to HRP servers and figured out new things. Now, I’m not saying “WHY DOESN’T BEE DO WHAT X, Y, Z does! HARRUMPH!”, of course.
But, hear me out here, for a moment. Have you heard of Sojourn? It’s an Eris-based codebase. So, we’re thinking bay-code. The one thing I really love about their codebase is varied wounds. E.g.: blunt trauma makes a bruise, which doesn’t bleed and isn’t infected, but can hide broken bones. Burns don’t bleed and won’t get worse. But if you don’t put ointment on them, they’ll get infected and kill you in the long run.
My point here being, ghetto and “short-circtuit” style gameplay works, but only to a limited degree. I actually don’t mind if combat heavy players/chars/antagonists abuse some of the more gimmicky things, such as say plumbing, since they’re designed to be fighting. But, at the same time, while chems and ghetto is very effective short term, it will still kill you long term. If you don’t get to med once you get past some 30 burn on Sojourn for example, your burn will NOT heal unless you either short-circuit it with tricordrazine (which is somewhat more difficult to acquire there) or unless you get surgery/proper med. That, I believe, would be a much better approach. Let chems and plumbing be as powerful as it is, but give it a caveat. If anything, make it OP as all fucks, but completely useless against any in-depth med. If anything, it will be a very organic punishment for people who want to short circuit med. Want to keep yourself alive on just meds? Enjoy rotting from the inside out because you disregarded your rib poking through your fucking liver.
EDIT: I’m REALLY getting drunk here, so I’m not going to make any hard promises … But if you’re actually interested into developement of an in-depth solution to med being overly simplistic … I"m willing to sit down and spend time to code. Mind you, I’m not exactly a good coder. I need direction and I need someone to lead me. I’m extending my hand here. I want Bee med to actually be robust as fuck. I want to be really fucking satisfies when as a paramedic, I know that I have to close up a breached lung because if I don’t, my patient’s lungs are going to collapse and they’re going to fucking die. I’m lazy, but I’m also inspired. If you’re really willing to fix med beyond nerfing the symptoms … Then I’d like to get in touch with you personally and figure out a way to improve Bee med. I’m not a great coder, but I’m very stubborn and I employ a lot of effort. I’m willing to help port Bay/Eris code into Bee. But I’m not intelligent enough to do it by myself. If you’re going to tell me you have enough good will to actually make it happen … Hell yeah man. Tell me what to do, and I’ll do my best to help you make it happen.
