Incident Description: As HoS, Moshe Goldberg did several things :
Along with other heads of staff, got a red alert called EXTREMELY early on after learning of heretics & traitors. None of them had commited near to enough damage, and they even had already caught one of the two heretics they found.
Carried on him a throwing weapons box at all times I could watch him/encounter him (i was here for only half the round’s length, used it anytime he found himself in battle - threw three throwing stars at me in total (on two separate occasions) after emptying his personal gun, despite having another egun on his suit - proceeded to boast about it.
Was reported to always have telescopic shield out even when not actively searching for antags - as such, being always actively ready for any antag “just in case”. this is not from me, but from someone on the discord - i have no way to attest to that myself, but the screen I have does show him carrying a lethal rifle for no specific reason (the two heretics he was actively searching for were dead)
I was informed after the fact that he was bwoinked already for point 2, however i was already set on making this report before learning this fact, two of those three points were not brought up in the ahelp, and I believe they are major enough to warrant a review once again.
Yeah I am the guy who played the HOS. You do fail to understand under Red Alert I am free to use lethals on you. In addition, you got ouplayed and made a huge mistake by revealing your weapons to me. While I chased you, It became a situation of Die or get killed for me. So I was within my right to use all my force against you.
I got bwoinked by admin and I believe he said I can use them in life threatening situation. Which of course was every single time I located you. I have not used the throwing stars only in red and when we became blue I refrained from touching the box which was on me.
You do fail to understand you aren’t supposed to raise red alert for stubbing your toe-
nor that there was “any” outplaying when my name was already shouted 5 times on radio in big letters while you were following me before i even took out my weapon (and i still had my ID on)-
you also had a lot more disable options while i was just trying to run towards you with a goddamn melee weapon only, meaning you absolutely did NOT have to use those extremely lethal throwing stars and could have used your perfectly fine disable egun-
and you also actively followed me when i was trying to run away, forcing me to move into a “fight or die” after you emptied all your hos gun shots on stun mode, so it’s not like i was cornering you every second and forcing you to take out that poor syndie gear in your backpack to defend your poor life-
I’d also argue you were never in ANY life threatening situations as that box clearly had reinforced bolas you could have very well spammed just as much (if you’re gonna break the rules anyway), but instead preferred to opt for the extremely lethal throwing stars
Finally, you’re not supposed to keep syndie shit on you if it’s not a red alert, and even if it is, it heavily depends on the threat you are facing - a lone unpowered heretic 30 min into the round on the run from half the station clearly is not. You should have put that box away in the contraband locker where it belongs, just like any other syndie gear.
I wasn’t there for the round but if red alert wasn’t justified in the first place I’d say that makes using lethals even worse. As per the wiki:
Situational alert level called in the event of imminent threat to the station. This should be performed by two heads of staff in cooperation with one another when there is a clear and present danger to the station.
What I interpret from that is that a threat to an individual is not enough for red alert, it has to be a large event threatening the station as a whole. And from what information been posted so far, that doesn’t seem to be the case at all.
I did not raise the alert myself because I did not touch the auth key card. I am a security member and the head of it. Within my own right to go search for you because you were a threat of killing crew members and lead them to be obliterated. I have not even touched the bolas the only thing I did was the throwing stars. And I am allowed to keep syndie stuff especially under red alert. Remember I am the HOS not detective or deputy
You are not to decide that because it is under roles of the server let me enlighten you about it
M2 No Powergaming
Antags are exempt from this rule at all times. “Powergaming” is considered to be the act of prioritizing “winning” rather than sensible roleplaying. Good roleplaying means that you have to embrace the possibility of “losing” for the sake of roleplay and/or preserving immersion. You should not be seeking gear you have no roleplay justification for having, nor should you ever generally be rushing into danger unless it is part of your job. For example, it makes sense for an Atmos Tech to don a hardsuit and enter a breached room to repair it. It makes sense for a Security Officer to acquire a gun from the armory and go fight to repel traitors. It does not make sense if the jobs are switched, and either case would be considered powergaming. Preemptively donning a hardsuit or acquiring a gun “just in case” is also considered powergaming.
M2 Key information
Whether or not you do something should be based on whether or not it makes sense for your character to do it.
Do not seek/acquire items that have no relevance to your job without an appropriate IC reason.
This includes preemptively seeking self-defense items “just in case”. Or acquiring insulated gloves or tools without a valid IC reason as someone not employed by Engineering.
Blue Alert is not an excuse to ignore this rule.
Red or Delta Alert or a direct threat/attack to yourself or your department is justification for arming/preparing yourself.
Tech Storage is to be used for replacement parts, not for you to have your own personal machines.
Non-security & non-command crewmembers are not experienced soldiers. You should generally call for help, rather than intervening directly.
You should generally attempt to flee from combat or dangerous situations.
You can be involved in minor physical altercations between crewmembers that result from roleplay.
Tell me now, were we not on read. Did heretics not attack a brig physician who can also is half part of security. Then we were within our rights to go lethals on you. Assume I did not have throwing stars and used my laser gun on you. What will you do? make report about it instead?
To also add so I dont sound like a liar. I might have agreed to raise it to red alert. Not because of you heretics only but also other antags like that moth with traitor items who emagged a disposal grinder.
Your case is not helped by you being extremely condescending and quoting rules in the middle of a thread meant for an admin to come and make a ruling, man.
A thralled brig phys =/= an existential threat for all of sec.
2 heretics & a traitor 20 minutes in =/= enough for red alert
having syndicate gear at all times and using it actively == powergaming
I’ll stop posting in this thread now, because i think my case is clear enough.
A thralled brig phys = access to brig and can attack sec members if commanded.
2 heretics & a traitor 20 minutes in with enough damage and death = Could raise it to Red
having syndicate gear at all times and using it actively == powergaming (situational)
But let us wait for Admins to decide. They are more wiser on this situation.
Preliminary thoughts and things based on reading the thread…
What I’m going to be looking at for this is what exact conditions lead to this being a red level issue and explore what they thought deserved that level of freeing security’s hands.
I’ll be checking into if throwing weapons boxes are exclusively contraband. I would consider them lethal force though, so obviously that conduct will be looked into as well.
This is going to be practically impossible to prove via logs, but if I can find evidence of it that will be considered.
I’ll go over the ticket and review if action is needed on the other points.
This is a SOP question: As one of the core authors of the SOP I can tell you that this is not true. The exact quote from standard operating procedures main page states “Security is allowed to use lethal force with extreme prejudice on individuals who actively disrupt combat efforts.” This indicates that you can’t just blow someone’s head off because you don’t like where they’re standing. They have to be actively disruptive, trying to get in your way, and whatnot.
This is slightly incorrect. As security you are not supposed to use contraband unless there is no other option available to you. In other words: If there is a box of throwingstars and a box of flashbangs in the armory and that’s all that is left, and your enemy is susceptible to flashbangs you use the flashbangs.
This is exactly correct. As defined in the SOP general page: " Situational alert level called in the event of imminent threat to the station. This should be performed by two heads of staff in cooperation with one another when there is a clear and present danger to the station."
This is wrong. I cite Space Law, Brig Procedures, point 7.
" 7. Confiscate any contraband and/or stolen items, as well as any tools that may be used for future crimes.
These are to be placed in evidence, not left on the brig floor or your personal use , until they can be returned to their rightful owners." Red alert does not serve as a reason to void your standard operating procedures.
So overall this is a two or three rule issue instead of just one. What i’m going to be looking into are:
2: No powergaming - Specifically arming self with antagonist equipment.
3: Do your Job - Specifically following general standard operating procedures for Sec that are listed both on the SOP pages and under Space Law.
10: Head of Staff Conduct - This falls in line with the overall SOP investigation, both as a member of command and as a Head of Security/member of the station’s security forces.
So, that’s my preliminary thoughts and feedback on things. I’ll shoot to get logs pulled no later than Wednesday and then aim for settling things no later than this coming Sunday. All times in thread by me will be in EST with a UTC conversion provided, just so we’re all on the same page about when stuff is supposed to happen by.
Given that this happened well over a month ago now is anyone still feeling particularly invested in me pulling logs, or can I just write a note and let this be a learning experience?
