Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: Both?
Which server did the ban happen on? Sage
Ban Type: Antag
Ban Length: 2 weeks
Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 01/09/21
Round ID: 25880
Ban Reason:
As traitor atmos tech, round-start syndicate bombed the supermatter engine, leading to the deaths of at least two other crewmembers who were not targets. Objectives at the time were to download research, kill a cargo tech, and escape alive on the shuttle. Violation of MRP Rule 8, antag conduct. They willingly elected to destroy a major part of the station and endanger their objectives. The supermatter, as much as you want to believe, is not a valid antag target. Just as we do not let you maxcap sec to kill security, you aren’t allowed to blow massive holes in other departments. Power generation for the station is a major way to ruin the rounds for more players than just those in the engine room. Take a break from antags for a couple weeks.
Appeal Reason:
My understanding of the rules is from the precedent of watching other people play and the SM is sabotaged literally every round.
I’m really not trying to be an asshole here.
Two weeks for this is… a little bit much, isn’t it? Two weeks of a complete and utter antag ban. It’s a first offense. I wasn’t trying to be rude in the ahelp. I’m not trying to die on any hills here, if this is against the rules then it’s against the rules but I wasn’t aware of that. I thought it was fine because it always happens.
Additional Information:
Why me? I know someone has to die on this hill so everyone gets the message… but why me? It’s the first time I even decided to bomb the SM as antag. I just wanna play the game and have fun, man…
also… what is syndicate bomb even for? What is power sink for? I legitimately don’t understand. I get this is sage and it’s MRP but… like, why?
Unrelated to current ban appeal, but I have a blunt question for you: what account did you use to play before creating Michiru2? Or is Michiru2 your first and only byond account?
Before beestation I played on servers I don’t want to talk about under account names I can’t even remember any more. I took a LONG break, made a new 2020 account and started playing bee intending to be a better player.
i once took a kit… it was mad sci dude… i had to kill a man so i popped the nade and half the station died to carp flood in 10 minutes and they had to call ERT to clean the carp away.
[2021-01-09 02:48:04.612] GAME: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME] has primed a syndicate bomb at Supermatter Engine (101, 178, 2) for detonation (Payload: bomb payload). (Supermatter Engine (100, 178, 2))
[2021-01-09 02:49:35.542] GAME: The syndicate bomb that Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME] had primed detonated!
Ticket logs
[2021-01-09 02:52:13.024] ADMIN: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms) checked the individual player panel for Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME].
[2021-01-09 02:58:29.360] ADMIN: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms) checked the individual player panel for Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME].
[2021-01-09 02:58:57.997] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: Hey, so, let's talk about the supermatter. Shall we?
[2021-01-09 02:59:16.327] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): the person I'm trying to target just pulled a gun on me
[2021-01-09 02:59:25.576] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): SM is a classic target
[2021-01-09 02:59:36.735] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: It’s also not your target. Why’d you blow it up?
[2021-01-09 02:59:48.451] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): what do you mean it's not my target? When is it ever ANYONE'S target?
[2021-01-09 03:00:29.675] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): I'm sorry but who did I kill in the explosion?
[2021-01-09 03:02:19.367] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: Why is it every time I bwoink someone for griefing or going against another rule they assume someone had to get hurt for it? Let me quote the rules. “Try to avoid unnecessary carnage that ultimately just ruins the round for other players, unless said players are your target. Subtlety goes a long way.”
[2021-01-09 03:03:05.171] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): Supermatter is a valid target, regardless of objective, and especially if nobody gets hurt. It causes chaos, distracts from traitorous activity, and creates openings. It also pushes towards a shuttle call, and if your objective is to escape on the shuttle alive then it's best to get it called ASAP before everything goes to shit and blob or benos ruin your round.
[2021-01-09 03:04:48.244] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): I was under the genuine belief that bombing the SM is acceptable traitor activity, I apologize if it is not and I have done a fucky wucky.
[2021-01-09 03:05:42.487] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): I just bombed the SM to make sure the round stays short and to ensure there's plenty of chaos as well as reason for me to be outside my department.
[2021-01-09 03:06:09.056] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: I’m consulting with the higher ups.
[2021-01-09 03:06:54.417] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): also I messed up since it hasn't even delammed yet and I'm already dead…
[2021-01-09 03:07:44.900] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): also I had a hypno flash and if I wasn't dead I could definitely take advantage of SM madness with that
[2021-01-09 03:09:40.492] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: So, just out of genuine curiosity, what does “Try to avoid unnecessary carnage” mean to you?
[2021-01-09 03:11:43.369] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): don't intentionally kill an innocent non-target
[2021-01-09 03:12:20.844] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: SuperDork55/(Pepis Peperson) “Good o'l michiru” (Space (149, 212, 2))
[2021-01-09 03:12:52.671] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: And how about the part of Sage Rule 8 on antag conduct directly above that, which specifically states “Antags are free to complete their objective by any means available, within reason. For example, destroying large amounts of the station is reasonable if your objective is to hijack the shuttle; it is not acceptable if your objective is to steal the CE’s blueprints.”?
[2021-01-09 03:13:21.794] ADMIN: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms) checked the individual player panel for Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME].
[2021-01-09 03:13:37.734] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): QM is gunning people down in the halls with a revolver, how is any of what I did relevant right now?
[2021-01-09 03:14:36.869] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: We’re not looking into someone else’s conduct right now. We’re looking into your conduct. Now are you going to keep deflecting, or are you going to answer the question?
[2021-01-09 03:14:48.365] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): I don't know what the question is supposed to mean
[2021-01-09 03:15:00.461] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: What do you think that section of that rule means?
[2021-01-09 03:15:00.523] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): define "large amounts." How many tiles?
[2021-01-09 03:15:28.011] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): it doesn't "mean" anything. It's not a specific meaningful thing. It's vague and nebulous so that it can be applied to a large variety of things. You know that.
[2021-01-09 03:16:02.218] ADMIN: SuperDork55/(Pepis Peperson) checked the individual player panel for Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME].
[2021-01-09 03:17:03.187] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]: I’ll get back to you in a minute with a proper full writeup.
[2021-01-09 03:17:11.231] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): uh-huh…
[2021-01-09 03:18:06.622] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME]->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): I don't really think arguing over rules or rulings is the best thing to be doing here. If the consensus is I did a bad thing then I'm sorry and I won't do it again. I'm just one person though. Sounds like you might have a problem with the larger community.
[2021-01-09 03:18:24.786] ADMIN: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms) checked the individual player panel for Michiru2/[CHARACTER NAME].
[2021-01-09 03:32:12.663] ADMINPRIVATE: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms) has created a global temporary 2 weeks role ban from 23 roles for Michiru2. Roles: Abductor, Xenomorph, Blob, Blood Brother, Changeling, Cultist, Devil, Internal Affairs Agent, Malf AI, Monkey, Space Ninja, Operative, Servant of Ratvar, Syndicate Mutineer, Revolutionary, Revenant, Head Revolutionary, Syndicate, Traitor, Wizard, Hivemind Host, Gangster, Teratoma Reason: As traitor atmos tech, round-start syndicate bombed the supermatter engine, leading to the deaths of at least two other crewmembers who were not targets. Objectives at the time were to download research, kill a cargo tech, and escape alive on the shuttle. Violation of MRP Rule 8, antag conduct. They willingly elected to destroy a major part of the station and endanger their objectives. The supermatter, as much as you want to believe, is not a valid antag target. Just as we do not let you maxcap sec to kill security, you aren’t allowed to blow massive holes in other departments. Power generation for the station is a major way to ruin the rounds for more players than just those in the engine room. Take a break from antags for a couple weeks.
Right, quick math. Round starts 40:29 after the hour, bomb is primed at 48:04, meaning a grand total of seven minutes and thirty five seconds had passed between the start of the round and the arming of the bomb, totaling out to just over nine minutes before the bomb went off.
So, with, and I can not stress this enough, no objectives completed at that point in time you decided that you would spend a large amount of your TC in order to destroy the mainstay of your department while it was most likely to be surrounded by non-targets.
Now, let’s examine the rules and antag conduct with regards to this specific instance.
From the Wiki
Antag Conduct
-Antags are expected to follow all rules that do not interfere with their objective.
-Antags are free to complete their objective by any means available, within reason. For example, destroying large amounts of the station is reasonable if your objective is to hijack the shuttle; it is not acceptable if your objective is to steal the CE’s blueprints.
-Try to avoid unnecessary carnage that ultimately just ruins the round for other players, unless said players are your target. Subtlety goes a long way.
-You must work with fellow antags towards completing a group objective if there is one.
With specific regard to rule 8, here is where you run into your violations. The specific example in R8 point 2 specifically states, you’re not even allowed to destroy large ammounts of the station (engineering included) even if your target is in that department. Additionally, avoid unnecessary carnage that ultimately just ruins the round for other players. Now, I don’t know about you, but if my department got maxcaped ten minutes into the round I’d be pretty upset, and in fact two of the department members were in the round-start logout report, likely for that exact reason. So you did, in fact, cause unnecessary carnage (non-pertinent to your objectives of steal research notes and assassinate a CT) that did, in fact ruin the round for other players, for no particularly good reason.
From the Antag conduct page.
Behaviour
-Antagonists with no objectives must act in ways suiting their nature. The goal of a Morph is to eat everything , the goal of a Nightmare is to snuff out all lights- and those who keep the station lit. Even Xenomorphs must act for their objective. Their primary goal is to breed and protect their hive.
-All antagonists MUST put their objectives first, and not act contrary to their objectives, unless greentext becomes impossible!
-Antagonists need not hesitate to defend themselves or eliminate witnesses, or people who are “in the way”! While deadchat may be salty and yell at you for murderboning, these do not constitute murderbone, even on MRP. This isn’t a hugbox.
-If you’re able to assassinate security with a low collateral damage method, then you’re allowed to do so preemptively before they’ve shown that they’re a direct threat to you. For example e-swording them in maint would be okay, but maxcapping the brig would not. Abductors already have different rules regarding murder (i.e. avoid it) which applies to them above this rule
Specifically with the antag behavior what I’m reading into here is the specific reference with engaging security. I want to make this very clear. We don’t even let antags maxcap the primary threat to them, securty. Why would we let you randomly pick other bits of the station to blast holes in?
Now, regarding your appeal specifically.
Sabotage? Maybe. Blown to bits ten minutes into the round? That’s a rare one, because the any% speedrun for most objectives doesn’t involve destroying your own objectives. In fact, destroying your own department could put you at risk of being a prime suspect of security given that you were one of the few survivors of the explosion.
You may not have been rude, but you were attempting to deflect my attention in your message sent at 03:13:37, where you attempt to shove someone out in front of the hammer in an attempt to get away.
As well as in the message from you at 02:59:16 when you initially responded to my ticket with “The person i’m trying to target just pulled a gun on me.” While I can understand the frustration there, IC in that circumstance. You were targeting another traitor, they shot you.
As well, I’m sick and tired of hearing people try to rationalize blowing shit up by saying “OH, BUT NOBODY WAS THERE!” This isn’t the articles of confederation. There doesn’t have to be a party harmed to constitute a rule break.
Not to mention, to quote you in the ahelp itself
So in reality you were attempting to cause even more damage than you actually did. This would be consistent with someone who needs to die a glorious death or hijack the shuttle, not escape alive and not in custody.
You set off a bomb on the SM 10 minutes into the round. That’s why you.
Causing large amounts of carnage and forcing shuttle calls.
Apart from cause engineers great deals of brain damage, there are many tactical and strategic uses for power sinks. Consider: If you’re working as a team with other traitors then there’s a good chance that with some coordination a power sink could lead to multiple people easily gaining access to their objectives at once while people hunt. Just theorizing about the big brain plays.
We don’t let antags randomly maxcap medbay, science, security, or cargo. Why would we treat engineering, the part of the station everything relies on for power, any different?
I did a thing as antag because I thought it’d be fine and I wanted to have fun. Any argument I’ve made over the rule has been me struggling to agree with it, but I acknowledge it.
Again it wasn’t my intent to kill anyone. It was a power sabotage play not a murder play. I’m genuinely surprised anyone died to it, and I’d be even more surprised if you told me they were fully roundended… did somebody try to disarm the bomb or something and got vaporized…?
It’s my opinion a 2 week antag ban is too much and that’s mostly my opinion because I’m me.
ps sorry for the edits I’m just trying not to double post
still isint a first offence a 3 day ban and not 2 weeks?
pretty shure the punishments and bans are supposed to escalate on repeated offenses within a certain timeperiod. (dont quote me on that its just my general ban experience)
I’m kinda unclear on that myself. It’s how I thought it was.
I have 500+ hours and haven’t been noted in a month, it’s pretty obvious this wasn’t intentionally malicious grief and was just a genuine misunderstanding of a rule.
I mean I was dead most of the round and didn’t see anyone salting at me in deadchat for murderbone and I didn’t first-hand observe the SM leading to any major grief but… I also wasn’t terribly present, so I really don’t know.
If I’m reading the code for this log right, this is when the world is still loading. As in the actual round when people can move starts about 3 minutes after this when then round start timer ends. So it was not about 7:30 before bomb from start, but much less as the round start timer is using “byond time” and is about 180 seconds which means it was at least 3 minutes sooner into a round, most likely over 4 minutes sooner.
I just want to point out, 1 or 2 days before this ban someone tried bombing the sm and failed 2 times because I had already set it up so that where they hit it didnt actually do anything.
To be completely honest this is the thing that I’m struggling to get my head around the most. You maxcapped the SM roundstart and somehow didn’t expect it to be surrounded by at least one engineer.
Good catch, actual relevent log is “[2021-01-09 02:44:26.931] GAME: Michiru2/(Michiru2) has been selected as a traitor” to demonstrate start time, so yeah.
With regards to that, cropping reduces the context. Here’s the full punishment for that one.
How about this? I’m willing to drop this to a Sage local ban. I’m also willing to drop this to non-conversion antags. The reason why I’m reluctant to reduce the duration is because, at the end of the day, this is supposed to be a punishment, and antag rolling isn’t a guarantee in any way shape or form as it’s a weighted, but still random selection.
So, just to reiterate: I’m willing to drop this to a sage-only, non-conversion/team antag ban.
I mean it’s still wildly unfair and you’re punishing me unfairly harshly for reasons I really don’t understand. Like… there’s no way I’m ever gonna see this as anything more than just you hating me and yeeting me for something most other admins wouldn’t to most other players. 3 days? Absolutely, fair and reasonable. 2 weeks…?
That being said, please. PLEASE. I want to play the game and have fun. It’s not like I can’t have fun playing non-antag clown or CMO because I can, but I really do enjoy rolling antag more often than once every two weeks…
p.s. syndie bomb != maxcap
edit:
I’m not familiar with you tbh sergei I have no idea how harsh this is or isn’t for your typical adminning style.