GradusNL banned by Kasual

CKEY: GradusNL

Admin’s CKEY: Kasual

Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: Both

Which server did the ban happen on? LRP/Golden

Ban Type: Server

Ban Length: 7 days

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 04/20/2020

Round ID: 14901

Ban Reason: As a non-antag killed a sec officer for being arrested when tresspassing in the armory. Was a nuke round, but that doesn’t change server rules.

Appeal Reason: Two reasons:
1: The security officer had no valid reason for locking me up without a timer so I defended myself per rule 4. Space Law isn’t a thing here and this happened on LRP.
2: The security officer took me out of the round by locking me up without a timer. Security is valid to prisoners locked up permanently.

Additional Information: The sec officer in question locked me and somebody who tried to free me in prison cells without a timer (i.e. ghetto perma) during nuke ops for arming ourself in the armory after nuke ops were spotted in the bridge. When informed of this by us (and confirmed by the delta/destruction alert) he ignored us and talked about criminal scum and the usual shitcurity business. I managed to free myself because the other prisoner smashed the window, at which point I freed him and killed the security officer. Kasual then banned me after telling me I broke the rules. No clue which one though, because I didn’t.

Do I really have to say why this ban is stupid on LRP? If anyone deserves a ban here it is the security officer. It’d even be borderline on MRP.

The player as I said to you was very new. You broke into the armory on a nukie round. And you were broken out pretty quickly so it’s not like you were taken out of the round. He arrested you non-lethally, not harming you once.

After our ticket where I told you as long as you weren’t left in there excessively or beaten it was not against rules. I told you he was a new player but you responded with killing him. Dude only has 26 hours and didn’t know how to use sec comms, and yet he definitely read up on the wiki to try and non-lethally detain you.

I banned you based on server rules. Not space law. You are allowed to break into the armory. You are not allowed to kill someone who is not valid on LRP. The justification that it is a nukie round and being removed from the round in jail doesn’t work since you went as far as to try and kill a sec officer 2 minutes before the emergency shuttle showed up.

Admin Ticket
[2020-04-20 19:55:33.144] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #2: GradusNL/(Kristina Armstrong): Solomo Newman locked me up during nuke ops for being in the armory - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2020-04-20 19:57:25.934] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Kasual/(Kasual Greene)->GradusNL/(Kristina Armstrong): Gotcha, checking it now
[2020-04-20 19:58:39.147] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Kasual/(Kasual Greene)->GradusNL/(Kristina Armstrong): Was it an excessive time or did they beat you? It's real lame to arrest for that on LRP during nukies, but not against server rules. If it was excessive Ill talk with them however. They are newer and probably haven't learn larger scale gamemode differences yet.
[2020-04-20 19:59:42.159] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Kasual/(Kasual Greene)->GradusNL/(Kristina Armstrong): Now killing a sec for arresting you is against the rules as a non antag. Even worse on nukies.
[2020-04-20 20:00:25.335] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: GradusNL/(Kristina Armstrong)->Kasual/(Kasual Greene): Really doing this? He arrested me for arming myself during nuke ops. I told him, we got confirmation from the alert and he arrested me anyways.

Could you specifically which rule I broke and why? You keep saying I broke the rules but you haven’t said which. You haven’t actually responded to the reasons for my appeal and instead repeat what you said in the ahelp slightly more elaborately. I provide reasons as to why I think he was valid and you only respond with “you are not allowed to kill someone who is not valid on LRP”.

The reason I brought up space law is because the council rulings say that space law is a guideline and timers should be reasonable. Perma-ing me (in a regular cell) in this situation is not reasonable, despite you implying it is. There was a round-ending antag about to destroy the station. The fact that I got broken out doesn’t make it okay either. Is plasmaflooding okay if I get stopped before it spreads?

The fact that I killed him two minutes before the shuttle arrived doesn’t have any connection to him being valid or not. Valid status isn’t time-dependent. He attempted to take me out of the round without a valid reason, so he became valid to me and I killed him. The only rule I can see this ban being based on is rule 1.

FYI: If you’re just going to use what I say as an excuse to repeat your own arguments without addressing mine again you shouldn’t bother. I can watch political debates for that bullshit. I didn’t make an appeal for it to be ignored. If you are going to do that just deny it so I can make an admin complaint.

Inb4 this ban expires before it gets handled.

You had no validity for killing someone who properly arrested you. They did not harm you, you were not an antag, and no other validity qualifier was met.

Breaking into the armory is Major Tresspass. He could have killed you 100% within space law while you were in there. Just going off the guideline he could have given 5 minutes at a minimum. You were not in the cell 5 minutes. He was still in the brig and may have let you out. Just because the timer wasn’t set does not mean you would have not been released.

You are allowed to commit crimes, but you cannot kill sec as a non-antag for it without actual validity.

Also saying “before it gets handled” is lame since I responded immediately to this appeal and you took 2 days for a response.

You managed to repost your arguments again without actually responding to mine. I’ve already responded to your space law argument before you posted it this way. Pretty predictable.
The council rulings say space law is a GUIDELINE. NOT a law. You say it is a guideline but use it like law. Is arresting crew with laser guns reasonable during blob? No, but according to your logic you’d allow it because circumstance doesn’t matter. Crew arming themselves due to wizard? To perma they go.
If there was a warden or HoS they would even be justified in arresting the sec officer because he trespassed into the armory to arrest me.
Oh wait, circumstance does matter IN DEFENCE of the “noob” since he theoretically could have freed me and I killed him minutes before the shuttle arrived (he didn’t free me and that last one has no connection, taking me out of the round isn’t fine because the round is ending in 10ish minutes).

This ban is going to expire first because you are going to keep ignoring the contents of my appeal.

You are absolutely correct. A crime is still a crime if you do not have authorization no matter the circumstance. The sec officer never qualified for validity, which is the only circumstance you can kill someone in as a non-antag on Golden.

  1. Validity Rules
    Once a player is valid, they can be killed or punished by other ingame means.
  1. No Self-Antagging or Greif
    Self-antagging includes damaging the station, attacking other players without a valid reason, and subverting the established chain of command as a non-antagonist role.

I do not ban or punish people based on space law. However, committing crimes that allow for execution are seen as validity on LRP. I will not read out every validity rule here. Review the rules and rulings pages if you are unaware how validity works. Not understanding or knowing the rule however does not give you free pass to break them.

Rereading your salt arguments I think I understand your confusion. Space law is actually in game law. The punishments are what is considered recommendations/guidelines for breaking those laws. It being a guideline is meant to allow wiggle room up or down in punishment, and not force security into a rigid server rule frame of mind.

You breaking into the armory 100% broke an ingame law. The punishment is the guideline at 5 minutes or a low point gulag. A sec officer can raise or lower that punishment since it is a guideline. However, once a punishment that is too harsh is issued, then it is breaking the excellence rule and is just being a dick. Since we weren’t able to see if you would have been left in there for an unreasonable time since you broke out they did not break any server rules. You killing them for doing their job properly did.

If I’m actually missing something or you genuinely don’t understand at this point, try to ask in a clear way. If its just you being angry and ignoring the rules/argument then nothing I can do there.

Sec jailed me for breaking to armoury so broke out and killed them.

Fair ban 5 days left

Actually, no this ban has almost two weeks left.
It was upgraded as the result of a backlogged report

goddamn the beestation gestapo are now banning you for being a shitter on lrp. It really has become nazi Germany time, and we, the shitters of lrp are the French

Nice way to shut things down Kasual, just say “salt arguments” to make it all go away. Good to know that the official Beestation security policy is shitcurity. Any crime is an excuse, even when the nukies are literally seconds from blowing the station up.
Why bother protecting the station from the nukies when you can arrest people trying to defend the station from them?
Are the only 3 choices be sec, be antag or be killed?
Space law is not just a guideline when the only “wiggle room” you allow is 30 seconds on a timer.

Just FYI Kasual, the reason I am discussing space law is that when the sec officers arrest is invalid, my kill becomes valid and the ban invalid. And you still haven’t addressed most of what I said. Deny the appeal already.
Make LRP LRP again

Which report? I’ve never seen it nor been given a chance to respond. Typical.

Edit: Since I assume you are the banning admin (your CKEY and you bringing it up here), I checked your activity and there is no reply from you to a report about me on the date of the ban or the day before. Literally Gestapo. More fake bans please. Where is the report?

You were bwoinked for it by a trial admin who didn’t have auth to ban you. They already spoke to you in the round and had gotten all the information necessary for a ban to occur, but in the absence of a full admin they couldn’t act.

They posted the ticket + round ID into a backlog, and I took the ticket, pulled the logs for the round to verify that it was correct and applied the ban. This wasn’t a normal player report.

It doesn’t change the fact that you killed and cremated someone for shoving you while you were a security officer.

Why say it’s a report when it’s something else? And the trialmin could’ve said it was being put in a backlog before logging out.

And don’t claim a high road when shitcurity is server policy. Just have to do it the MRP way apparently. Why not shut down LRP if you hate it so much?

People allowing you enter the armory when nukies attacking is not a right but a courtesy. You are not entitled to the weapons, but have justification to break in. Him arresting you for it is within his job. You were not allowed to kill him under any rule/validity, especially mid ticket where I had already explained it was not against any rule. Keeping ban in place as is.

Make another appeal for the second ban in a different thread.