Frebbie Note Appeal by Archanial

CKEY:

Admin’s CKEY: Archanial

Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: Both

Which server did the ban happen on? Golden LRP

Ban Type: Note

Ban Length: N/A

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 11/21/2020

Round ID: 24254

Ban Reason: Note for antag conduct

Appeal Reason: Note was given for conduct in a role not listen on the rules page

Additional Information:

I was noted for antag conduct despite my role (heretic), not being bound to the antag conduct guidelines as per Rules - BeeStation Wiki, which is both the official rules found on beestation13.com and linked in the in game rules UI button.

I don’t feel like this should be in my admin remarks as not only is it unwritten rule enforcement, it is unwritten rule enforcement on a solo antag role on the LRP server. If in the future the rules page is updated, this looks poorly on my conduct and is in fact an ex post facto remark.

Archanial made references to the wikipedia for further reference, to which I responded that it is not referenced at all in the rules page, and additionally, contradicts his judgement: (Rules - BeeStation Wiki)

This also applies to other antags with “stealthy” forms- hivemind, devil, etc. They may only murderbone when they have been revealed.

By the time of the delamination there were pierced realities in visible public places and the station being turned to rust by a rust path heretic.

Additionally, as my objective was to kill and sacrifice 1/5th of the current server population (5 out of 26 server connections, not all of them active players), I believe it can be very reasonably argued that my objectives did include mass murder and/or destruction.

With the sum of my arguments in mind, please read the logs and decide for yourself whether this judgement was reasonable or not:


Admin PM from-Archanial: Why did you tesla delam?
PM to-Admins: I’m an antagonist. From what I understand the LRP antagonists arent restricted like on MRP?
PM to-Admins: The tesla doesnt gib people so I can get some easy sacrifices in

Admin PM from-Archanial: They are, you need to complete half of your objectives and one of them is to protect someone
PM to-Admins: From what I see protecting him can be part of the half that I dont pursue cant it? I wouldnt do this on MRP, but what you describe isnt even on Rules - BeeStation Wiki

Admin PM from-Archanial: Traitors, Blood Brothers, and Changelings must complete half of their objectives before engaging in mass murder/destruction.

PM to-Admins: Heretics are none of those things

Admin PM from-Archanial: Rules - BeeStation Wiki An independent antagonist with a set of objectives must complete at least half of their objectives, rounded up, before murderboning. Having a Hijack or Martyr objective allows an antagonist to murderbone indiscriminately.

PM to-Admins: I wouldnt say a loophole. Heretics arent the only antags that arent listed with minimum objectives in LRP. Revs, cults, etc are all allowed mass destruction if it doesnt grief their teammates. If youre looking for a judgement Id ask that it be for future rulings and not a ruling on my conduct as what I did wasnt against the rules as theyre written.

PM to-Admins: My rataionale and requst still stand. Theres nothing mentioned about heretics having minimum objectives on the rules page that is listed on the website and in the rules tab in the game UI. If youre asking for a second opinion it should be to update the said rules page, not to discipline me. Id be welcome to join the discussion on the forums with you if youre like to create a thread for the community to chime in on future cases.

Admin PM from-Archanial: I don’t want to delay further with only one ticket. This should be antagonist ban but I am going to rule 1 this example. I will push for the page to be updated but keep in mind future admins may not be so lenient and the rules listed in antagonist conduct on wiki apply as well. With all that said I will note you and close the ticket.

Heretics were added somewhat recently, but the rule’s intention is to block antags from blatantly griefing the station at least until half of their objectives are completed. They didn’t exist as of the last revision of the rule, but it is still definitely not something you should do

The note records that you were warned about it since you didn’t know that the rule does actually include heretics, and ensures that if you do it again there is a record showing you were already warned about it.

Your objective also was to protect someone.
Tesla gibs your targets so you are not able to sacrifice them.
The note describes what you did pretty well so I am not removing it.

This also applies to other antags with “stealthy” forms- hivemind, devil, etc. They may only murderbone when they have been revealed.

I would argue you can murderbone after ascension but you didn’t do that.

The rules listed in antagonist conduct also apply so I would suggest you just eat the note instead of an antagonist ban.

I could be about that if the circumstances were included in the note, but in addition to the circumstances not being included, there are the following unaddressed points:

By the time of the delamination there were pierced realities in visible public places and the station being turned to rust by a rust path heretic.

From the antagonist guidelines: This also applies to other antags with “stealthy” forms- hivemind, devil, etc. They may only murderbone when they have been revealed.(Rules - BeeStation Wiki)

Additionally, as my objective was to kill and sacrifice 1/5th of the current server population (5 out of 26 server connections, not all of them active players), I believe it can be very reasonably argued that my objectives did include mass murder and/or destruction.

Furthermore,

The note records that you were warned about it since you didn’t know that the rule does actually include heretics

The rule doesn’t exist on the rules page or the wiki, and even if it did, the mitigating circumstances (including killing +20% of players connected and heretics being outed and hunted) call the violation into question in a very reasonable way. And so, I think you would agree that given the absence of the rule, it cannot be violated. That is entirely reasonable, right?

Now the spirit of the ruling - if Archanial and other staff wish to regard moderating Heretic conduct as a Rule 1 and have the note stand, again, I’m totally fine with that, but I’d like to have it included in the note and acknowledged as such. You guys can call any activity you see fit as being off-limits under that rule, I’d just like to have it noted as being a ruling made after the fact or have the note removed.

Additional information in the note would be useful to other staff as it would denote intent, circumstance, that the warning was given ex post facto either as Rule 1 judgement or a warning regarding rule 5 because it is the first time this situation has come up, etc. Everyone can agree on that, right? A hyperlink to this thread could even be inlcuded (Frebbie Note Appeal by Archanial)

For what it’s worth I asked @SasukexSakura1337 in a prior round about tesloosing as a changeling, was given the rule about lings, traitors, blood brothers, and followed the applicable rules as-written for my antagonist role. Having not seen heretic listed, that factored into the direction I took in the round, if that strengthens my arguments as not being constructed after the fact.

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I brought up with respect additional information and arguments we didn’t have the chance to discuss in game, nothing here is attacking you or even your sense of judgement. Why the threat?

  1. The rule was unwritten
  2. Heretics were outed as per the wiki page you linked
  3. Pursuing my objective would lead to the death of >20% of the station population
  4. If it was a discretion to warn about an unwritten guideline after the fact, I’d just like it noted as such

Those are the four points that I’ve brought into the discussion and I would like your feedback as well as that of the other staff because of the circumstance. Nothing about it is meant to be antagonistic.

wouldn’t you have had to say that you saw how the rule excluded heretics before u tesla’d

wait did u say that?

Yeah I realized that would probably be helpful for the discussion which is why I included:

And I have read the rules prior to my refresher with Sasukex (If you’d like to chime in, I didn’t have any reason to remember the round number of that particular round I referenced, but the ahelps would be found in the logs). That is why I was confused when Archanial bwoinked me to begin with. I thought he mistakenly joined LRP when he meant to join MRP.

Admin PM from-Archanial: Why did you tesla delam?
PM to-Admins: I’m an antagonist. From what I understand the LRP antagonists arent restricted like on MRP?
PM to-Admins: The tesla doesnt gib people so I can get some easy sacrifices in

It does exist on the wiki and you were even linked to the wiki in the ahelp if I’m not mistaken. At the very least you were told it is outlined on the wiki.

There is only a single person that can update the website-side rules and nobody has made the assumption that heretics were excluded before now. You’ve pointed out that it will likely be mis-interpreted by newer players to the server and it should be corrected, but that doesn’t change the validity of the note to serve as an indicator that you were warned about this, and should now know that you can’t do it.

It’s understandable for someone that’s relatively new not to know that heretics weren’t covered because of the discrepancy caused by explicitly listing antags in our website-side rules. It’s not understandable to take the stance of “Well if it isn’t explicitly against the rules, I should be able to do it”

I never argued that I want to be allowed to do it again. In fact I even wrote:

And then provided my argument that even if it were a rule 5 judgement [my perspective was]:

I’m fine with the ruling itself, whatever, it was one round and I don’t mind not being able to do it again.

The only thing I’m looking for is to either have the note updated, perhaps with a link to this thread, or to have it removed having contributed additional information and circumstance[like above in this post] to this discussion that I didn’t have the opportunity to review with Archanial at the time he wrote the note.

I see no harm coming from it, just reluctance for whatever reason. What’s going on?

they don’t believe this happened (plz ignore that edit thank you)

I can safely say that he asked me for tesloose am and I said half of objectives without shuttle/escape have to be completed usually to be allowed for murderbone. Frebbie is also a good play from what I’ve seen where he constantly deals with station issues.

Edit, I could’ve told him better or atleast used better words for understanding. If i’ve said something wrong in the ticket which was understood wrongly i’ll take full responbility.

you what last time i saw tesla it explodes and destroy everything constantly

This is not a threat, after I restarted I was advised to look over the fact rules are split and just antag ban you.

It is written, just in different place.

Heretic stealth form is human, they can murderbone after they ascend

I can’t see how is that relevant.

If all you want is the note edited I will edit it.
“Delamed SM into tesla without half of the objectives as heretic. Claims they are not listed as lone antagonists on the rule page.”
Sounds good?

Don’t try to ruleslawyer next time then.

Do try. Itll work someday.

It isn’t a claim. There is no mention of lone antagonists on the rules page and heretics aren’t told to follow half their objectives. All I’m asking is for the below or just the hyperlink to this thread.

Man I asked an admin about antag guidelines earlier in the day, read the rules, followed them like they were written, and got bummed out that I got noted over it. I’m not trying to spoil your day or anyone else’s.

I want everyone on beestation to have a good time whether they’re staff or players and something came up where the rules were in question. I gave all relevant information, am not being evasive, and would go so far as to say it’s more respectful to provide that information for Archanial and the staff here than just our limited IC chat. Misunderstandings happen, sometimes the rules need to be updated, and new administrative scenarios happen with updates to the game. I’d just like the note to reflect, as written above, circumstance and intent (just hyperlink to this thread). I didn’t set out to do a bad thing, intended to stay within the rules, and don’t want to take up more of your time than I already have - can we be friends?

The note documents that you did something you weren’t aware was bad, and were warned that it was bad and not to do it again in the future.

The note isn’t misleading and doesn’t leave out important information about the incident.

bump @Archanial

I’d deny it already

Denied.