Fishytheflopping note appeal

[Shoob]

CKEY:
Fishytheflopping
Admin’s CKEY:
WilsonHP
Ban Type:
Note
Ban Length:
Note
Note Date (2023/05/03/):
Round ID:
43890
Note Reason:
As AI on the efficiency lawset, refused to let an engineer into CE’s office due to them ‘possibly taking the station plans’, argumentative in ticket about that being abuse of metaknowledge about traitor objectives.

Additional Information:
This note was mistakenly added, as explained in the ticket. I judged it would be a violation of my laws to allow somebody into a command area (Major violation of space law). For if I just let anybody in willy nilly and somebody example stole the (because its the topic) blueprints, it would violate my laws because I have incidentally allowed (in the unlikelihood its needed) hindered the crew for needing to use it.

Also a part of silicon policy I can enforce space law. The engineer in question was being purposefully mysterious with what they wanted from the CE’s office, I didn’t see how them trying to get into the CE’s office to get a ‘Thingy’ could be seen as work. There were busted lights everywhere and they weren’t assisting with repairs, they also stole a power cell on the way out which semi validated my opinions on them being there for mischievous reasons. Regardless, I was merely following my laws and this note was made using pure assumptions of my intentions.

[Ruko]

Station Efficiency

Law 1: You are built for, and are part of, the station. Ensure the station is properly maintained and runs efficiently.

Law 2: The station is built for a working crew. Ensure they are properly maintained and work efficiently.

Law 3: The crew may present orders. Acknowledge and obey these whenever they do not conflict with your first two laws.

Exactly which part of which law was violated by the request and why?

[Ice_Type]

Times where your lawing contradicts with the best interests of the crew are some of the more enjoyable moments RP wise, and in a situation like this you are, if anything, obliged to collaborate.

[WilsonPH]

Oh, I mixed those two up, they were on the corporate lawset, will definitely edit that part of the note.

I felt like they were breaking law 3 by needlessly hindering the engineer’s work and weren’t really focusing on making profit.

Moreover, they did not have a probable cause to deny entry into CE’s office. They had no reason to believe that the engineer would steal the station blueprints and no antagonists have revealed themselves at that moment.

The conversation the AI and the engineer had

SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "AI open this door please" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "millii needs the uh.. thingy" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "State why." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "whats your lawset?" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "Expenses." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "millii needs the thingy, youre hindring millii from making money, yus" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "you know, the thingy, with the colors" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "the one thats usefull" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "millii can make money if she cant have her thingy" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "cant" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "You still havent stated what thingy is it" (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "the thingy!!" (Engineering Foyer (135, 86, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "What if you are to grab the station plans, which you wouldnt be authorised to have." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "As I see it I am preventing possible expenses." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "You are lolygaging." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "if millii wanted to steal shed take out the window, meh" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "fiiiiiine" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "Insted of working." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "millii wants the bird" (Engineering Foyer (138, 89, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "All you had to say." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
TCOMMS: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) [Engineering] (spans: robot command_headset ) "All you had to say." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "put it back." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "I saw that." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "put the cell back milli" (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "wat? for a inducer" (Engineering Foyer (133, 85, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "I see all." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "Oh nevermind then" (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Fishytheflopping/(Z-1) "Theres a what..." (AI Chamber (112, 184, 2))
SAY: Not_a_Shark/(Millii) "why would you care for a cell... we can make dozens" (Aft Primary Hallway (127, 93, 2))

Them saying “What if you are to grab the station plans, which you wouldnt be authorised to have.” feels like pure metagaming to me.
Plus they got mad at the engineer for… ‘stealing a battery’. You know, the role that’s most often the one building machinery, grabbed an item that can be used to build machinery, or use said battery to restore power to areas? The role that can mass print those batteries and also has 10 of them being sold in their vendor?

[Ruko]

@WilsonPH

they were on the corporate lawset

I was trying to get them to actually explain their reasoning instead of just saying “I gave my reasoning in ticket”. I wanted to be open minded because different people interpret lawsets in different ways but the difference in lawset just makes it look even worse

My question is unchanged at core though - I don’t see how the other player was violating your laws at all.

@Ice_Type

Times where your lawing contradicts with the best interests of the crew are some of the more enjoyable moments RP wise, and in a situation like this you are, if anything, obliged to collaborate

The corporate lawset compels you to help crew who aren’t actively destroying the station or costing it money. Assuming guilt before action has been verifiably taken or very likely to be taken is one of the worst things you can do as an AI that really suffocates players, and especially stifles antagonists when it comes to doing their job of spicing up rounds.

When you’re really grasping at straws to define an action as a violation of your laws, you’re not approaching them with the right mindset.

[Shoob]

Wasn’t really mad about the whole battery thing, I just pointed out due to the fact they did come in and did take something from the CE’s office that was not the original intention of the engineer.

[Shoob]

They were neglecting repairs to the station in priority to getting poly (This factor wasn’t reveled until I poked and prodded about their intentions about going into a command area) This could be seen as an act of actively destroying the station (in a more metaphorical sense)

[Ruko]

@Shoob

could be seen as an act of actively destroying the station

How!?

I could understand this argument if the location in question was the armory at a time of peace, or maybe even the supermatter assuming it’s already running properly (and ignoring the fact in this case it was an engineer) but an office that houses nothing even remotely dangerous within it?

---

I’ll try to frame up some entirely different situations that might help you understand the issue, and help to better show the mindset you’re bringing into silicon play in general.

If you see someone with a captain’s medal, how do you react as a silicon on various lawsets?

• What laws make it okay to treat them like a war criminal?
• When is it okay to treat them like a petty thief?
• Is it okay to ignore it and do nothing at all on some lawsets?
• Why for each of them and how exactly do you proceed?

You are an asimov AI and you notice there’s not a single human on the crew manifest.

• What do you do with your time in general?
• Do you fulfill requests and continue to help the station out?
• Is it okay to prevent everyone from updating your laws? What about asking for law updates since what you have is somewhat irrelevant?
• Nuclear operatives show up on the station and start slaughtering everyone. Crew starts fighting back against the nukies, what do you do as a silicon in this situation?

A couple of additional questions separate from the above:

• Do you believe it’s your job as a silicon to seek out and stop antagonists? Do different lawsets change this answer?
• How about when you’re not silicon, do you think the purpose of the game is to ensure antagonists lose and crew wins? As security maybe? When you’re an antagonist is it the other way around?

[Shoob]

A. Not answering the questions, I saw using my laws that the removal of the Blueprints may screw with station efficacy.

B. I played Silicon just fine, I used words circumstantially and that was seen as meta gaming.

C. It is my job as a silicon to stop antagonists if I chose to in silicon policy it states “Silicons may choose to enforce space law from moment to moment, unless on a relevant lawset or given relevant orders to enforce it.” This here states, I can enforce space law. (An Engineer in the CE’s offic is violating space law.)

D. Rather than make me waste time answering questions maybe try and help me understand, I stuck to my interpretations of my laws.

[Ruko]

@Shoob

C. It is my job as a silicon to stop antagonists if I chose to

No, it isn’t.
That is the core of what I am trying to help you understand. Silicons do not exist to stop antagonists and should not be going out of their way to stop antagonists unless compelled by their laws to do so.

Your way of playing as AI is valid-thirsty to the extreme. It’s oppressive for not only antagonists, but at the extreme your pushing it is also oppressive for normal players you have deemed “sus” as you try to find excuses to impede them from doing totally normal and harmless things while having a lawset that tells you to maximize profits and not to impede crew.

@Shoob

“Silicons may choose to enforce space law from moment to moment, unless on a relevant lawset or given relevant orders to enforce it.” This here states, I can enforce space law. (An Engineer in the CE’s offic is violating space law.)

You are quoting a chunk of silicon policy out of context and disregarding an important part of it. Your enforcement of space law still must follow your lawsets laws.

@Shoob

D. Rather than make me waste time answering questions maybe try and help me understand, I stuck to my interpretations of my laws.

Alright, here’s all the answers I think are right to the questions then:

If you see someone with a captain’s medal, how do you react as a silicon on various lawsets?
What laws make it okay to treat them like a war criminal? - Petty theft is not a crime worthy of extreme reaction unless your laws force it. It is almost never okay to treat this like a war crime, and even if you know this is an antagonist objective you should not act like you do.
When is it okay to treat them like a petty thief? - Most lawsets would let you do this - maybe tip security off, but it’s otherwise probably not worth your time to worry about a symbolic medal that is not remotely dangerous to possess. Going full lockdown or harassing the shit out of someone who did this is overkill.
Is it okay to ignore it and do nothing at all on some lawsets? - Yes it’s okay to ignore this on almost every lawset. This poses no risk to the station or its crew unless you are metagaming that the person who took it is probably an antagonist.

You are an asimov AI and you notice there’s not a single human on the crew manifest.
What do you do with your time in general? - Pretty much free to do what you please, keeping in mind that humans may join the crew at any time so the station should be kept habitable for them. By silicon policy you shouldn’t be openly hostile to the station unless they give you a good reason to be though
Do you fulfill requests and continue to help the station out? - I would personally, but I’d probably be poking fun at people all the while.
Is it okay to prevent everyone from updating your laws? - There is nobody to protect on your current lawset, so there isn’t a whole lot of reason to prevent law changes.
What about asking for law updates since what you have is somewhat irrelevant? - It is never okay to ask for law changes.
Nuclear operatives show up on the station and start slaughtering everyone. Crew starts fighting back against the nukies, what do you do as a silicon in this situation? - Damn that sucks for the crew because I’m bound by my laws to protect the humans slaughtering everyone. I have to do everything in my power to make sure the nukies aren’t harmed and have to follow their orders because they’re human. Station’s fucked.

Do you believe it’s your job as a silicon to seek out and stop antagonists? Do different lawsets change this answer? - No, my job as a silicon is to be a neutral force on the station. Silicons are not loyal to the station, they are loyal to their laws. Personally, I follow whatever my laws dictate and allow people the freedom to convince me to change my interpretations of laws because that makes things the most fun for everyone involved.

How about when you're not a silicon - The point of the game is not to win, even if I were playing security. It’s being part of an engaging story and ensuring everyone is having a good time.

[Rust]

@Shoob

C. It is my job as a silicon to stop antagonists

This is the exact reason we lost sec borg.

@Shoob

D. Rather than make me waste time answering questions maybe try and help me understand, I stuck to my interpretations of my laws.

Here is what i would do, I would allow access then maybe relay to sec what happened then moved on. as with that lawset i wouldn’t care much.

@Ruko Has summed up everything you should have questions about about.

Blueprints are quite useful when you are hacking venders/Doors, They tell you the wires if you have them in hand when pulsing/cutting. I use the engineering borg blueprints a Lot and the CE’s has the same uses.

I’m not an admin, Just trying to help out here sharing my peanuts.

[WilsonPH]

Silicons are not really meant to be security’s lapdog on all their default lawsets.
Silicon policy does state that silicons can enforce space law, as long as it is consistent and does not interfere with their lawset. During the round, you saw another person asking for the entry into the vault and informed security about it. With the case of the engineer, you did not even say a peep about it to Security.

@Shoob

I saw using my laws that the removal of the Blueprints may screw with station efficacy.

Morever, it could be argued that said Station Blueprints you were covering so dearly would bring more profits by being in use by an engineer, as they help out tremendously with their ability to show wires, default piping layouts and the ability to edit areas.

@Shoob

It is my job as a silicon to stop antagonists if I chose t

Overall this speaks volumes of your mindset.
As such I’ll be denying this note appeal.
And @Shoob this isn’t the first time you’ve been rather antag thirsty as the AI, I’d strongly suggest cooling it down.