Dutchylwd Game ban Appeal

Ban Appeals Game Appeals
1

CKEY: Dutchylwd

Admin’s CKEY: brotherhangyul

Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: Sage

Ban Type: Server

Ban Length: 21 Days

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 2020-10-29 18:51

Round ID: 23198

Ban Reason: Metagrudged a player, claming they have an emag without any evidence, their only point being “he was clicking me”. Player did not have an emag, the metagrudger was a borg on crewsimov. Auth: Rukoofamicon.

Appeal Reason:

So, either way taking a break but as suggested should make an appeal either way.

I don’t remember word for word what was exchanged between the Admin and me. Some Debtor who was in space as i was doing solars, who is a known shitty person. One out of a few very rare people who i genuinely think make the server a shittier place. Is strolling around, calling me out as probably a nukie borg as he always calls me malf and other things. Which wasn’t an issue. I ignored it, he turns around and follows me in space. 99% sure he had something in his hand trying to use it on me. I zoom away through solars and tell Security to check on his ass for a potential Emagg. Which after that i get Ahelped.

As i recall i get pretty upset how i get questioned over something that i have done plenty of times without ever being called out on it or being told it was wrong. And the same person who i Ahelped several times before that only got answered once with a “Sorry can’t do anything about it this time” gets away with his usual bullshit. I get told how telling sec someone has a potential emagg and should be searched is breaking my laws, whether it be stamina damage or a chance for actual harm happening. Which confuses me greatly.

I had received a unjust ban not that long ago about a somewhat similar situation. A borg knows about a emagg, so they /could/ flash a baddie trying to emagg them and drag em to security if no ones coming to help if they’re 100% sure and have it confirmed they are a baddie. In this case though, i wasn’t 100% sure. So all i did was warn sec for a potential emagg and just telling them to search. In the Ahelp though, which could have been entirely mistaken by me just being really upset towards this shitty person. I am fairly sure i said something that could’ve been mistaken as Metagrudge. I know so, because i was in the middle of typing out something that would clear that up and halfway through i got hit with the ban.

With plenty of hours on Bee, and only one actual ban from when i first started out which was a genuine mistake in the first place. I can pretty much say with ease that the last thing i would do is openly admit to just easily going full Metagrudge mode on someone, as much as i dislike said person. And if by any chance i were to go as far as Metagrudge someone. I certainly wouldn’t think of something so small and petty. I was told there was (as far as i am aware) a hidden note about a previous potential Metagrudge which i was never talked about before. As said, there is only a very small select few people that i actually dislike. But i know i just avoid them and ignore them the best i can.

But lets say, for a moment. That i would admit (Which if i did, i fully would admit it just out of spite to that said person.) i fully Metragrudged someone over something so small and petty because of the fact they’re just straight up a bully in-game that make shifts less fun for people. Yeah, i got someones bag searched for a potential Emagg. If i was fully at fault, i would honestly like to know why the ban would be so randomly long. Why is a Trialmin handing out a 21 day ban, but when i spend 2 minutes looking around. People who have reasons listed as “Obvious metagrudge happening” with a way longer ban history, 1/10th the hours i have. They get way, waaay shorter bans by regular game Admins.

I know (hopefully) all Admins trial or not, are there to make it a better place. But i’ve spoken to plenty Admins before that told me, time played and ban history all that is taken into account. Plenty of ban reasons have “Yeah you got many hours, you should know better!” but i genuinely feel that all was thrown into the water regarding my ban mid-conversation. I very much hope any reasonable Admin would’ve thought twice about someone with that many hours, happily helping new players often and such a scarce ban history and all that would be maybe a moment to think “Yeah they’re clearly upset right now, or perhaps they meant it differently.”

Either way, reason and questions aside.

TL;DR: Salty and upset over shitty person that commonly is an asshole on purpose, didn’t mean to metagrudge whatsoever. If i did, i wouldn’t have picked the most useless petty choice to do so. And a side note about a question regarding the random variety of ban lengths.

2

From the other thread it sounds like a ban is warranted since you’ve been noted for metagrudging this player before.

However based on your mostly clean record and the relatively mild inconveniencing that took place I’d agree 3 weeks is a bit much.

3

When I asked Ruko, they said the average ban for metagrudging is 2 weeks to a month. Went for an inbetween and went for 3 weeks. This is genuinely one of the longest bans I’ve given out, but so is the way of the metagrudger.

(Part below is in response to actual appeal)

I’m reasonable, but I’ve stated my opinion regarding bans on accounts with high hours; doesn’t matter, you’ll get treated like any other. Yes, we appreciate you playing on Beestation so long. No, I’m not going to reduce your ban because of that. You’ve literally admitted to metagrudging in this very appeal; saying somebody’s a “known shitter” and then calling them out for “having an emag” is a metagrudge, plain and simple.

Let’s see… I’ve made it clear that I think Notmegatron doesn’t deserve to play security, but do I instantly demote them when I’m HOS? No, It doesn’t matter if you think or know that someone is a shitter, grit your teeth and bear with it like everyone else.

In the end your argument is essentially “He clicked me, I know he’s a bad person so I called him out for maybe having an emag.”. That could’ve gone really bad for said person if enough people in security believed you; sec has a bad habit of using lethals to arrest potential traitors.

I’m sorry the ban is so long, but sometimes you just have to admit that yes, there’s a pain in your back and no, you can’t rip it out. Be the bigger person when somebody’s a shitter.

4

Second only to assorted forms of cheating and griefing the server as a whole, metagrudging is the worst thing you can do to ruin the experience of the game. It breeds and continues hostility between players that should either be dropped or resolved by admin intervention.

Every round is a new round, players can change with time but only if given the chance to do so. Do not use past grudges to fuel rash decisions.

This incident was decidedly mild, but the ahelp is the main reason I authorized the ban as if it was full-on murdery metagrudge:

Ticket, parsed to be easier to read

Brother_Hangyul: Hey, got a second?

Dutchylwd: Sure!

Brother_Hangyul: Why are you claming the skeleton Bungo has a cryptographic sequencer (emag)?

Dutchylwd: chasing me in space and he is a known shitter to accuse people of being a traitor. So i am doing it back, ahelped him a few times before but nothing ever gets done about it. Gotta fight fire with fire i guess?

Brother_Hangyul: What.

Dutchylwd: What part was unclear?

Brother_Hangyul: So, let me get this straight. He's chasing you in space and you don't like him from previous rounds, so as a cyborg, you accuse him of being a traitor despite that most likely going against your laws?

Dutchylwd: Someone chasing me click spamming my location is worthy to call him out for having a potential emagg yes, will forever do that. And that most certainly 200% isn't going against my laws whatsoever.

Brother_Hangyul: How does him chasing you correlate to "he must have emag"?

Dutchylwd: Generally when someeone has something in their hand and they chase you, it is either to emagg and flash you? EVEN MORE SO IN SPACE???

Dutchylwd: You do know it is pretty hard to understand whether someones a actual baddie and a fucking asshole thatt you guys never do anything about right???

Dutchylwd: Can you explain to me telling sec to search someone for a potential emagg is a violation of my law though?

Brother_Hangyul: You're assuming that they are a traitor; if he is, he will be killed and that's a violation of law 1.

Dutchylwd: You are replacing words i mentioned, i told security to set him to arrest to find a potential emagg. I am not saying hey sec fucking break his kneecaps and then search if he has anything bad on him. You are swapping words out for no reason.

Brother_Hangyul: As a borg, you really shouldn't be accsuing people of having an emag with no evidence. It will land them stamina harm at best and actual harm at worst; you are a silicon being who's meant to actually care about the crew, not make claims with no base.

Dutchylwd: I dont get this way of doing shit around here even after nearly or over 1k hours. Doing something perfectly within my laws that hasnt been a wrong thing before suddenly gets questioned. but whenever i report someone that actively breaks the DONT BE AN ASSHOLE rule by deconstructing everything i make and constantly says AI is malf because i dont listen to his law 2 deconstruct everything you just made, that gets ignored several times with one time being a "oh lmao cant do anything about it"

Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim) has created a global temporary 3 weeks server ban for Dutchylwd.


Raw ticket logs, in case I messed something up

[2020-10-29 18:41:39.550] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): Hey, got a second?
[2020-10-29 18:41:44.778] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): Sure!
[2020-10-29 18:41:57.608] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): Why are you claming the skeleton Bungo has a cryptographic sequencer (emag)?
[2020-10-29 18:42:39.454] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): chasing me in space and he is a known shitter to accuse people of being a traitor. So i am doing it back, ahelped him a few times before but nothing ever gets done about it. Gotta fight fire with fire i guess?
[2020-10-29 18:42:47.332] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): What.
[2020-10-29 18:42:58.588] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): What part was unclear?
[2020-10-29 18:43:45.249] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): So, let me get this straight. He’s chasing you in space and you don’t like him from previous rounds, so as a cyborg, you accuse him of being a traitor despite that most likely going against your laws?
[2020-10-29 18:44:41.241] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): Someone chasing me click spamming my location is worthy to call him out for having a potential emagg yes, will forever do that. And that most certainly 200% isn’t going against my laws whatsoever.
[2020-10-29 18:45:34.654] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): How does him chasing you correlate to “he must have emag”?
[2020-10-29 18:46:03.789] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): Generally when someeone has something in their hand and they chase you, it is either to emagg and flash you? EVEN MORE SO IN SPACE???
[2020-10-29 18:46:30.375] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): You do know it is pretty hard to understand whether someones a actual baddie and a fucking asshole thatt you guys never do anything about right???
[2020-10-29 18:47:08.016] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): Can you explain to me telling sec to search someone for a potential emagg is a violation of my law though?
[2020-10-29 18:47:35.150] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): You’re assuming that they are a traitor; if he is, he will be killed and that’s a violation of law 1.
[2020-10-29 18:48:33.887] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): You are replacing words i mentioned, i told security to set him to arrest to find a potential emagg. I am not saying hey sec fucking break his kneecaps and then search if he has anything bad on him. You are swapping words out for no reason.
[2020-10-29 18:49:51.440] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim)->Dutchylwd/(Cat): As a borg, you really shouldn’t be accsuing people of having an emag with no evidence. It will land them stamina harm at best and actual harm at worst; you are a silicon being who’s meant to actually care about the crew, not make claims with no base.
[2020-10-29 18:50:31.617] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dutchylwd/(Cat)->Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim): I dont get this way of doing shit around here even after nearly or over 1k hours. Doing something perfectly within my laws that hasnt been a wrong thing before suddenly gets questioned. but whenever i report someone that actively breaks the DONT BE AN ASSHOLE rule by deconstructing everything i make and constantly says AI is malf because i dont listen to his law 2 deconstruct everything you just made, that gets ignored several times with one time being a “oh lmao cant do anything about it”;
[2020-10-29 18:51:28.345] ADMINPRIVATE: Brother_Hangyul/(Hangyul Kim) has created a global temporary 3 weeks server ban for Dutchylwd.

There’s been a substantial change of tone from the time of the ticket leading compared to this appeal. I definitely don’t think the ban should be less than two weeks, because when you were speaking in the moment of it, you made it very clear what your intentions were.

7

Any more details on this that you can remember?

8

That’s if he’s a lethal risk to arrest (aka holoparasite). Otherwise every greytider will use this as precedent to ahelp when a borg refuses to free them from being dragged to brig for stealing.

In general, borgs can choose moment to moment to uphold space law. Additionally, without prior evidence, Security cannot be assumed to be harmful. If the HoS is mounting heads to a spear and the Warden patrols the halls with a shotgun, then you can assume Sec is harmful, but until that happens you can’t assume that by default.

Even confirmed traitors can be peacefully put out to pasture in perma.

Asking security to search someone for suspicious behavior is not likely to lead to harm to that person by Security.

10

It is pretty much a situation that happens time to time. Even more so because i play a Cyborg often, someone when we are alone chases me with something in their hand for no good reason is 99% of the time a very much a good reason in my book to run away and screech at Security. If you have a debtor in space chasing me through solars while clearly trying to use something on me, then until the last day i play this game. I will most likely call them out over comms to security no matter what.

12

Well, this clears up things massively then for me.

I have done my best to report this person previously, as i have been told to do so whenever something is going on. And it being ignored all the time until the only one time where i have been told “Nothing can be done at this time” it does simply hold a firm confirmation that passively Metagrudging is indeed allowed, just don’t make it obvious. As i have been suggested to do so previously in OOC chat by several people.

I do want to make it fully clear though, that if my goal was to “Full-on murdery metagrudge”
I would have employed just about any other method to get back at someone. Because playing dumb and acting like you aren’t actually upset at someone for being an asshole on purpose with a clear metagrudge thought behind it is 100% gonna keep away from being banned.

My goal was to make it clear towards the end, which i never got to do. Was that my anger and choice to report him to sec were very clearly seperated up until i got Ahelped, since most of my anger came from the fact i got ahelped over something so small while being fully aware the bullshit that shitty guy gets away with. It was basically the same as many months ago where i would be so upset at certain obvious shitters that get banned weekly that i would threaten to Metagrudge them to avoid ruining the round since the bans were absolutely useless. I obviously never ended up doing so, but still.

14

Then just answer me this, if i played my cards exactly like the person this aimed towards at. If i straight up just copy paste the same “type” of behavior which is fully accepted since i was told nothing can be done about it before, what would stop me from in the future if i were to play again to lets say…

Play Security, its blue alert right? Bola, flash. Cuff, drag to brig. Question them about something that can easily be passable as a good excuse to do so in the first place. Waste their time, if i never make it publicly known. And if i act stupid in Ahelps “Oh that person? Yeah they were just suspicious for -Insert commonly accepted excuse- and decided to search them fully. I hold no grudge other than that, i don’t know them.”

Quite literally happens so often that it is sad. It happened before to myself, and i was already told in OOC that Ahelping is next to useless because what proof do you actually have? The only actually way of getting any sort of “justice” is wait for them to fuck up. Just like how many weeks ago i got dragged off to brig by the same Sec guy every shift for petty random made up excuses. After he got a warning for critting me for no reason. And then finally fucked up for real by force feeding me a floorpill that contained poison.

The point i am trying to make is, my actions i made at the time were in no way to be metagrudge. Even if later on when i got pissed off in the Ahelps said otherwise. It is like, if someone knows they’re done playing on a server they ended up hating and want to go out with a bang. They wouldn’t grab a toolbox and hit the nearest tider till they get banned. They would fucking Maxcap the entire station most likely. If my goal was to Metagrudge someone because i reached a point where i can’t handle their shit anymore, i can promise you that the very last thing i would do is get their bag potentially searched on a shift with at most 3 - 4 sec guys.

But on the ban length note, it seems i can’t convince otherwise. Which sadly doesn’t matter either way at this point because it does look like rules are seperate from each Admin and everyone follows their own believe. Whichever Admin came to me and is telling me “If you have a clean track record after being here for a while, it will kept in mind.” and then another tells me later on “Not actually a thing.” then that is some extra backwards way of doing things. If someone with 20 bans and 50 notes, 200 hours playtime gets treated the same way someone with few bans, few notes and way more playtime. Then all that confirms is that if you know you are going to be busy the next few days, why not toss that fucker who pushed you once into the grinder and eat a 24h or 72h?

I have seen people who straight up break rules on purpose, sometimes even brag about it. And all they get is a slap on the wrist, not a ban and such. This is just me trying to really understand. But if in the future i play again, what exactly stops me from toolboxing the first asshole i come across to death? Knowing that a 24h or 72h is worth it. If you look at the biggest known shitters who still play here, it is straight up proof that you can repeat this same exact behavior and get the same useless short bans. As to what i recall was, the incentive to stay on good terms and Ahelp all that was so to avoid situations like these. Yeah, i fucked up got angry and clearly misspoke. Perhaps this person didn’t mean to actually go “full-on murdery metagrudge”

But either way as a final note, even if this ban was lifted. I wouldn’t play either way since i am taking a break. I just find it highly unusual and very strangely harsh the way this is handled. This wasn’t aimed in the first place at some random new guy i came across. It was aimed at someone who ruined plenty of my shifts that i also complained many times about without given a response, that if i were to metagrudge for real, the last thing i would do is the most useless petty thing. If my admission of being very clearly angry at someone, paired with me saying i had no intention to /actually/ metagrudge since i would’ve done it way differently. On top of my mostly clean track record which apparently has no influence at all. Then that is honestly just sad in my eyes.

15

“Play Security, its blue alert right? Bola, flash. Cuff, drag to brig. Question them about something that can easily be passable as a good excuse to do so in the first place. Waste their time, if i never make it publicly known. And if i act stupid in Ahelps “Oh that person? Yeah they were just suspicious for -Insert commonly accepted excuse- and decided to search them fully. I hold no grudge other than that, i don’t know them.””

You’d have to ask to check their bag before attemtping to arrest and search, you can only do the arresting if they refuse the bag-check. You’d be noted for that kinda stuff, even banned if it persists.

Again, I know you have many hours, but when it comes to metagrudges, it really doesn’t matter. It’s a serious thing. Your points are essentially “(Person) did this and got (punishment), so why do I get a bigger punishment?”

Because metagrudging is a much more serious rule violation compared to simple trolling. It ruins the game in more ways than one and is a pain to deal with from an administrative perspective.

I don’t believe I’m going to lift this ban; will wait for opinions from bigger admins, but this seems like you’ve decided to administration into your own hands, which I can respect to a degree… but also, no, don’t do that. Ahelp if you truly think it’s a metagrudge, but it seems like your past ahelps were simply IC or invalid.

Once again:

Your hours do not matter in metagrudge scenarios. You broke a rule and are paying the price, comparing your punishment to others will not work.

Also, more hours generally means longer punishments since you know the thing was against the rules and did it anyway.

16

Hours played/clean record are not an excuse for blatant misconduct

A mostly clean track record allows us to trust players in cases where we wouldn’t trust someone with a bad record. Situations where ‘benefit of a doubt’ on whether intentions were foul or innocent… or whether some catastrophic accident really was an accident or not.

No really, I didn’t mean to maxcap medbay I just fucking misclicked

I’m sorry, I’ve never actually tried X department before, so I didn’t know this would happen.

I didn’t know felinids would be killed by my chocolate smoke machine!

These are situations where a relatively clean record will allow someone more leeway in the decision to or not to ban.

On the other hand

You have two prior instances of potential metagrudge and also more or less directly stated that’s what you were doing as soon as the ahelp started. You then confirmed it when asked for verification. While your record is overall pretty clean, it is not free of metagrudge.

There’s also definitely been extra attention and an investigation drawn to the other player in question as a result of this appeal too, but even if they’re found to be at fault and banned as well in the end, it doesn’t mean what you did was acceptable.

17

By this logic security borgs are completely useless. Can’t bring anyone to security, because what if they are found to be an EoC and executed? Human harm. In fact, taking this to its logical end, a sec borg should do everything they can to prevent criminals being checked by security.

1 Like
18

That is partially correct for all borgs on default lawsets, and why adjusting your silicon laws is important if you don’t intend to be fighting against them as security. and silicons may not request such law changes either

If security ever gives borgs a reason to believe harm will befall prisoners, they are required to intervene in the case of crew/human harm. If a cyborg on default lawset has an understanding of capital punishment, that means declaring someone a traitor is highly likely to result in their death unless something has been done to assure them otherwise.

Silicons are lawful neutral by default, and should protect crew/human regardless of their antag status with regard to their laws

19

Thing is, you’ve done this to me before for little to no reason, I don’t know why you have a problem with me but from day one you’ve been a dick to me. I never chased you, I pointed to you a few times to get you to stop so I could check your name, you go the other way so I ask on comms for somebody to check if we got borgs (since an engi Borg alone in space coming from nowhere is a little sus), you call me out for having an emag, not asking security to search me, full blown saying I have one (logs will back this up). You tend to ignore my law 2 requests and ignore me if I’m being beaten or you find my body. the only thing I’ve done to you that I can think of is time deconstructing some windows you made near cargo since you refused to listen to me that whole round, as a result of that, you put me on your back and span me into a maint room and bolted me in and built walls near the plastic flaps (he never unbolted it and as a result got people stuck in it before the shuttle left, leaving them behind, people tried to hack it open but got shocked too). Ignore the wall of text and spelling mistakes, I’m on my phone and I have fat fingers

20

The problem isn’t that I didn’t have an emag, the problem is that he called me out for HAVING one on crewimov. given the prior experiences with you breaking your laws and being a dick to me for no reason, anybody would expect it to be a metagrudge. What if sec decided to go full on lethal on me? or if they were to try to bola or disable me in space and I end up leaving the z level dying alone? And as a skele, medical hardly ever figures out how to revive people with no organs.

21

I very very much do not really care to read your opinion on the matter Bungo. I have discussed the things you have done to the detail with others. With logs and all that backing me up, You are basically on the edge being an asshole with obvious Metagrudge in mind. Just not enough to make it an issue, despite Admins telling me they fully understood how it could be annoying but not rule breaking. And just in the case it isn’t actually a grudge or anything. Just know your actions ruined plenty of my shifts, some of which ruined the ones of new players too that spent 30 minutes figuring out how to make stuff with me.

The fact remains you go out of your way to be a full on asshole nearly every shift i happen to come across you. Not even once in a rare while being annoying, but full on going-out-of-your-way to be an asshole. The fact i go out of my way to call you out while having ignored everyone else should speak for it self after so many hours. Getting straight up bullied out of shifts just because of you being a shitter. If i had no issues with you, thought you were just annoying once in a while and didn’t think much of it in general i would’ve put up with it and never give a shit. But to roughly quote a new player that asked why i had to destroy all his shit after you called me malf again, telling RD to blow me up for not obeying law 2. something that i helped build which sparked the beginning of my anger towards you: “Seems being an asshole is encouraged around here.”

The ban will stick which isn’t a issue to me since i am playing different things. I hold no grudge towards any of the Admins since in my eyes it is just following the rules in the end, just overall really saddens me to go from having actual fun shifts where helping new people often is something actually fun to me as well, to now just walking by and often going “Nah, fuck that.” and just have to stop doing what i liked doing.

Naturally when i do come back in the near future i will change it up and try and be better. Thank you either way for taking the time to respond and explain stuff @Ruko and @anon64574651

22

After discussing quite a bit wirh Ruko, we’re going to deny this appeal. You’ve literally admitted to metagrudging, and there is no good reason that can justify it. Make an ahelp if you feel (xyz) is wronging you, hell, make a player report if there are no admins on. Don’t take justice into your own hands.

Appeal Denied