Dutchylwd Ban Appeal

Ban Appeals Game Appeals
1

CKEY: Dutchylwd

Admin’s CKEY: ravellon

Is this for both servers or just one? If so, which one: MRP

Which server did the ban happen on? MRP

Ban Type: Job: AI, Cyborg, pAI

Ban Length: 2 Weeks

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 2020-10-16 14:20

Round ID: 22687

Ban Reason:

“Disobeyed Law 2 order from a crewman who was attempting to emag. Justification being: metaknowledge of how traitors operate, apparent assumption that he can ignore orders from valids.”

Appeal Reason:

So i have no fucking clue what is even going on anymore. This traitor hacks his way into Cargo where i was alone. Flashes me, emaggs my cover open and is so bad at the entire thing that i can recover. I call for Security and no one comes, i drag him to the acting Captain in HoP office. He starts screeching “BORG LAW 2 LET ME GO” and afterwards gets upset in mentorhelp by saying he hates me. ravellon messages me about the whole thing and at that point i am so fucking lost. His entire reasoning was that he is crew. And metaknowledge of Traitors isn’t allowed from Cyborgs. So he basically goes on to try and tell me “Yeah but he might not have bad intentions as a traitor, only maybe stealing!” and so far, up until he decided to quickly close the ticket on me and ban me for 2 weeks i try to argue several things like. Everyone can casually law 2 me in that regard right? Want into the AI upload? All the items in the Armory? Want AA? Then just blindly obey that. Isn’t the whole idea of MRP that you can at the very least acknowledge that those things are obviously going to end up bad for the crew. Even more so about a random Tider flashing and using a shady card to unlock my cover which normally only Robotics and heads can do?

If for whatever reason i get explained why this is the case and why i am wrong. I just want to know something to make it very clear for myself. So please, do give me an answer so i can understand for good. If someone who is a Traitor tells me to follow him. And he law 2’s me to stay silent so he can Emagg me because he has a stealing objective. I am supposed to just let him Emagg my cover open, crowbar and Emagg me?

And just as a side note, i have been playing for a while on MRP and i 100% had a conversation before with an Admin about these kind of situations. And they told me the polar opposite of what ravellon told me. If any of the Admins remember i talked to them about this, it would be nice to hear from them.

And as a final note, what i seriously do not get is these fucking bans. If i had some concrete answers that actually made sense i would have obviously changed my ways in how i do things. But instead i get a two week ban on my favorite role? Someone who barely causes any issues and usually tries to only help people out as a Borg? On top of it during low-pop times and there never being some kind of “repeating behavior”

All in all, very unclear about this topic. Something that has never been a issue before suddenly became one. And on top of that, a fucking two week role ban for someone that plays a lot and helps more than they do bad during rounds. These bans make absolutely no sense to me. If i was a piece of shit during rounds, had repeating behavior and barely any signs to improve i would entirely understand. But two weeks for something that could’ve been fixed easily with a warning is just so stupid.

6 Likes
2

You git flashed, harm to you as a borg, under law 3 can safely walk away or grab him. He law 2’s you, this overwrites law 3. You HAVE to let him go. Then, in order to prevent crew harm, if we are to assume you know that emags are bad, you go tell security.

Dont be one of those “im gonna break my laws because common sense” robots, the entire quirk of silicons is that they follow their laws brainlessly.

3

Yeah but that is the thing. I very clearly remember talking to some staff a decently long time ago and was told the polar opposite of what i was told this time. I have been doing as i was told ever since then and it never was a issue before. Now? It was. I hope whoever i talked with could speak up so it can be clear. It just doesn’t make sense to me (in regard to the one question i asked) which i should just be braindead on MRP and do anything under the assumption that “They have no bad intention” like the examples i gave.

And just a side note, the only security during low-pop wasn’t responding so i dragged him to HoP which was around the corner.

I have never in all my hours heard before to just be braindead and follow law 2 under the assumption of “It wont be a crew harm thing” But like i said in the appeal, IF that is the case i will happily follow it like that from here on out.

4

Well, they do have bad intentions, its just that those are directed towards you.
Following crew orders takes priority over personal safety, but if he had an ebow youd be protecting other crew, which wouldve been fine, i think?

5

Yeah that is the thing its a big “i think” situation. I was trying to get a Answer to my question to ravellon regarding situations like “What if i get law 2’d to get someone into AI upload, empty the armory. Or silently sit still as someone subverts me” but i got no answer at all.

I genuinely thought all this time, if someone is obviously going to be causing crew harm. You warn security, and if they don’t respond. Get em to someone who can deal with them.

6

Being subverted is crew harm. You can’t let your laws change like that

1 Like
7

I always went under the assumption that being subverted is a obvious bad thing resulting in crew harm from a Cyborgs POV. But all i got from that conversation i had that the Traitor is still crew, and by law if he just says “LMAO NOT GONNA HURT ANYONE SILLY” i should just shut up and be subverted anyway. Maybe that one tider just needed all the Armory to shoot at the practice range? Plenty of situations where they can apparently just say “no bad intentions just trust me”

8

Yeah @Ravellon this is bullshit

1 Like
9

Being subverted is not crew harm. It may lead to crew harm if the subverter has the intention to cause crew harm.
Without IC justification for why he believed said subverter has those intentions this is metagaming the reasoning to disobey Law 2.

10

This ban is bad from logic and rp stand point.

Logic - you see a man flash and try to emag you, not only is he obvious traitor ( we can argue its metaknowladge, but for me knowladge of the game mechanics isnt meta) but subverting your laws is a crew harm in itself. Law 1 overrides 2 and the correct way to handle this, is to arrest the bad man before he does obvious harm later in the shift.

RP - you are literally a cyborg. You know most, if not all that humanity knows. And you are connected to the greatest database on the station ( AI ). ITS YOUR JOB TO KNOW SHIT AND USE THAT KNOWLADGE TO HELP CREW, THATS THE PURPOSE OF AI AND BORGS.

TLDR : This reads like a bad HRP ban. You cant punish a dude for knowing his shit.

1 Like
11

The proper course of action for the borg at this point was to stop flashing as ordered and run away. Unless he had reason to believe the hostile elements on the station were murderous from previous IC events.

12

Then i shall ask you here for the 500th time to please answer my questions. Since you have been avoiding them like the plague so far. Any Traitor with a emagg can state they have no intention to cause harm after subverting me. If they Law 2 me to stand still and be quiet, state they only have to “steal” aka lie. Am i supposed to stand still in the future and let ANY traitor just Emagg me? If a Traitor or tider, anyone at all asks entrance to the Armory, or orders anything bad but from a Cyborg POV is just “following laws and assuming nothing bad will happen” then doesn’t that open up a path to full shittery?

13

Yes. You can scream in binary or on comms that you’re being subverted. You can run away before you are ordered to stop.
But with well formulated order in a round where there were no unsolved murders you have to let it happen.
Unsolved murders or attempted murders, I mean.

14

Every man, woman and child knows what syndicates are. And everyone knows that their day job is murder, stealing, terrorism and overall crew harm. At this point we should ban ai players for calling out dsword or carp users cuz “how do you know he isnt just good at fighting”.

And lets go even futher into rp ( how dumb it may be at this point). You are getting flashed and the person who disabled you uses illegal technology to open your cover by force. Those are 3 red flaggs allready : flash, illegal tech, not roboticist with access. No way in hell law 2 overrides law 3 or 1 at that point.

AND LETS GO FUTHER. In rd console there is illegal tech upgrade. NT themsleves aknowladge the existance of evil forces that try to harm the station and the crew. Emag = illegal tech = high possibly syndicate agent = high possibility crew harm. If a crewmember is a great threat to the other crew, law 2 dont mean jack shit. And the emager was a great threat as stated before.

15

Law 2 always overrides Law 3.
Law 1 must be in play to override Law 2.
For that there must be a reason to believe this person in particular intends to cause crew harm.
That reason may be an altercation previously in the round that indicates there are people with murderous intent on board the station.
The “subverting AI is crew harm in itself” is the kind of reasoning that allows AI to stun lock captain in the upload just to prevent any and all alterations to its laws.

16

This is all so unclear. There is a reason why people are sneaky, and why Cyborgs aren’t that commonly Emagged easily. What you are saying would mean that almost every single Traitor round all Cyborgs could very easily be emagged. If a Traitor asks a borg to follow and he instantly while alone with you Law 2’s you to stand still and not say one word to anyone. You would have to follow those orders, they can apparently according to you just state they’re a baddie. Have no harm intention and to just casually obey them and let them Emagg you. Because they wouldn’t cause harm as they said. Right? Yet everyone and their mother according to IC knowledge knows about the Syndicate as someone else in the forum stated. There is known illegal tech for Cyborgs. But somehow Cyborgs themselves aren’t aware that Syndicate trying to subvert them is a good and okay thing and are to assume nothing bad will happen? I never heard any other Staff mention this in any sort of way in my 2k - 3k of hours in the game. If this was common knowledge, imagine how much of a fucking shitfest it would be if borgs just just followed orders in a braindead way and never thought “WELL THIS CAN’T END UP GOING BADLY FOR SURE!”

17

Being subverted = your laws defending crew are removed, thus law 1 gets broken.

5 Likes
18

If this is as you say then this is another instance of unwritten rules that will have to be wirtten down.

In that case all that is left is for other admins to weigh in.

@GameAdmin

19

And the hell? “The “subverting AI is crew harm in itself” is the kind of reasoning that allows AI to stun lock captain in the upload just to prevent any and all alterations to its laws.”

I thought it was common sense type of knowledge that heads of staff = good. Syndicates bad. Cultists, bad etc. They are still crew and you have to obey them. But if it goes down a obvious bad route you ignore their orders. Being subverted goes down a obvious bad route. this is the first time i have EVER heard some staff say “You should let syndies just emagg you without resistance according to law 2.” ignoring entirely what will come afterwards.

This just feels like a big ticket for people to just be like “Hey Borgo i wanna go hunt some carp in space. So empty the entire fucking armory for me so i can use all those guns on just some FISH. AIGHT?”

1 Like
20

This issue happens A LOT, let’s take more common examples

ASIMOV AI, nukies declare war. If the captain announces he is going to un-human the nukies, the AI must stop him from un-humaning the nukies, because nukies are human.
marking someone as not human either by killing them (Presto changeo, you’re a dead body) or through laws is effectively the same, as you turned them non human.

Ravellon isn’t to blame here, it’s the lack of clarifications, this happens time and time again. We should what TG did and make a list of rule clarifications (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings)

Side note: If a crew law 2’s a borg to get them high risk items (X-01 would need clarification) and to not say anything about it, they have no law 1 obligation to subdue (or tattle!) the crewmember for being a suspected (effectively confirmed) traitor, because that is where the rule of “they might not be harmers” come in to play.