i think with the PDA update and portable sec records, a bit of the detective loop was lost. You had to scan and return to your office with the results. Now you find out instantly. I think making Detective have to return to his notes to continue the investigation might be a good call
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sec powergamers when they did get to one tap every antag lmao
I feel like ever since detective got added into having antag eligibility it has led into a detrimental curve of ‘‘trust’’ that puts them on the Lawyer tier in the sense of : The average Officer/Warden/HoS will always doubt you or not care about you much, obviously there are some exceptions with Warden and HoS that actually appreciates a good investigation, written report, proofs, etcetera it’s mostly an OOC tbh that makes player not fully ‘‘care’’ about what the det has to say.
The revolver changes are fine, keeping it in a locker until blue alert seems reasonable, the baton removal has been quite controversial for a lot of players since it’s iconic, while i never really used it(it doesn’t cause stamina damage so it’s just to make someone trip and act according to the situation) i feel like it should return.
Same with the sechud, they should have it again because it can help the Detective on keeping an eye on who’s to monitor or to have an extra pair on eyes on the field that can have some extra eyeview(binoculars!!) to help report situations, most dets do ask the officers for one anyways.
But i do agree that they should have some extra tools to work with some investigation gimmicks and gameplay like a suit that could be made into departments outfits for trying to blend in
Another good addition would be for them to have a special Detective camera that would make less noise upon taking the picture, so the person you photograph doesn’t immediatly know that sec’s gonna be on their ass, maybe the picture could be extra-detailed showing a description on where that picture was taken or something similar.
It’s true what Gilgax said, there needs to be a diffrence between going the PI route or the ‘‘true’’ detective route, i’m interested in both tbh, but i’m more inclined for the investigator one that slowly put clues together an aids security on it’s own way without having them need to engage on fights per se.
Some stuff could go into their default locker or if we get too many good ideas it could become a beacon kit akin to curators/chaplain/etc (though i agree with Taylor that it should be just for aesthetic mostly).
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The more I thought about this after yesterday, the more I think detective should just be embraced as it is being played instead of forcing the intended design onto the role.
It is quite true that people generally aren’t playing the role as intended, but instead as a security officer with a few extra tools. It’s been stated this is wrong because it isn’t intended, but regardless of intentions does this actually create a problem if we just embrace them into the role of “sec officer but slightly stronger”?
So you’re just gonna be defeatist and give up on any kind of rework? Bodies are too easily revivable… then make them less so! Secs hunt valid?? Then make them not hunt valids!!
That is the exact opposite of what I said.
I’m telling you a detective rework should not be focused on “Make it more fun and complex” but “Make it more valuable and non-replaceable”
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I main detective with almost 100 hours on him, I find him the most fun and interesting roleplay filled job in sec. I do really understand that 90% of detectives are the same sec but with .38 guy and I try my hardest to prove myself to everyone in sec every shift.
I know what problem these changes are intended to solve, and I want to offer my experience and thoughts with the changes.
First off, the baton, I personally never used the baton, as I don’t really need to stun anyone as detective, I wouldn’t notice any change if this was removed and in fact didn’t notice it in a round until 20 minutes in when I realised I didn’t have anything on my belt.
Secondly, the gun, as detective, people often PDA me telling me about a crime scene or asking me to come see something. About 40% of the time, this is bait to kill me in maint and I have been saved countless times by the gun. On green, I assume its safe, so I follow them wherever they say and when they do shove me into a wall and start stabbing me, it only takes about five shots to get them in a state where they fall to the ground, but will get back up. I use this time to cuff them to prevent further harm before calling for sec to pick them up.
The scanner changes I do support, I don’t think sec relies on the scanner for most arrests, but the work detective does provides security with arrests they wouldnt be able to make without him, and therefor he is a valuable asset to the team.
Regarding antag, I have tried to play antag det, but its always the same mediocre gameplay. I think removing his antag eligibility would be good and bad in that detective could no longer be a powerful traitor at the cost of the security department being 100% confident in everything they do with no second thought amongst eachother.
I think the best way to combat these officer+ det players would for sure be more things to do in order to investigate crime, and while I haven’t thought of many, here are a few suggestions:
- Autopsies: Det has a health scanner, but I would like to be able to discern what chemicals were inside of a body at the time of death or even some clues as to what killed them. It is difficult to discern a wound from fire to a wound from electricity or the cold of space with just the number of burn damage.
- Camera recordings: I have NO idea if this could be implemented, but if it was it would really change the game for detective. Currently, detective has tools that tell him the time of death, and he often can discern timeframes a crime has occurred. The issue is, not many people pay attention to the station time so there isn’t much more you can do when you know what happened and when. My suggestion here is being able to replay security camera footage on dets monitor, to take it to a specific time such as one listed on his health scanner and watch through the cameras at that time. I almost think this is impossible, but I’m throwing it out as I think it would be a great change to increase his toolset.
Also, while I’m talking about detective, playing detective is very map dependent, maps like kilo don’t have det’s camera, and don’t give him access to the interrogation room through sec. Half of the stations in rotation don’t give det access to the meeting room, where he can find folders for cases and the lathe for making special rounds such as TRAC (which I wish saw more use).
This my first real post on the forum, and in short I honestly love detective and think we should be adding to his kit, not taking from it.
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Finally, my favorite detective weighs in!!!
Good to see you Bombyx!!
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A little late but
If wearing a med hud there is a tab called Medical Evaluation which is available when a body is still fresh and it is a form of autopsy and can say how the victim died
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Is this real???
a way I can see the geneticist involved in the process is for the dna part of the proposed scanner additions to actually offer either a list of mutation numbers or the genome of a random mutation
genomes are, imo, random enough at roundstart to help guarantee identity, much like a fingerprint is
the geneticist in this case could note the clue from a detective and scan any suspect to crossreference the genome
I remember being asked by a medic to give them space adapt, insuls, TK, that kind of stuff, and I refused all besides SA
later I died to a heretic attack and when I was revived, I was missing my PDA and handheld genetic scanner, which I later found in the lab
I took note of the mutations saved to the scanner and I wanted to scan the medic’s genes to see if they were the same
well, they weren’t the same, but I still suspect DNA scrambling in that case
thought this story would offer a viable way to implement DNA based clues and interaction between a detective and a geneticist
I like this idea of expanding his interaction with other jobs, as its a very fun and fulfilling part of an investigation to bring in the knowledge from another player in a department they understand better than you.
This is really awesome to know, get ready to see me at the med desk roundstart. 
I talked with you briefly in LOOC about this post, and on what I said in that brief interaction I’ll elaborate on it here:
In my opinion, though I don’t entirely believe other antag players haven’t had these thoughts before, the gear offered by the Syndicate PDA generally have seem to have mechanics that have stealth features added as an after-thought - tacked on, so to speak. Though you could successfully argue that stealth and visible antagonism can be intermingled - see the Chameleon kit and the Agent ID for wearables, and Sleepy pen and Toxins kit for offensive - I’d respond that the integration of stealth mechanics into the core antagonistic playstyle and items does not go deep enough to justify it over a overt approach to doing your objectives.
An example, for us to examine my hypothesis - the classic Stechkin:
- 8 round magazine capacity
- Chambered in 10mm Auto
- 30 brute on hit
- Small enough to fit in pockets
- Accepts a universal silencer
This, at first glance, seems like a decent weapon for both stealth and pure offence, right?
Wrong - only the silencer functions as a pure stealth mechanic, in the sense that it aids concealment for its own sake, while the compactness of the firearm can be utilised in a pure offensive capacity by having it act as a sidearm to another, more powerful weapon.
Let me propose an overhaul of the Stetchkin, which encompasses and encourages stealth mechanics to a significant degree:
Behold, ladies and gentlemen - the Stetchkin Kit!
- A sleek mini-briefcase, or other small container for that matter( Syndicate-branded or with its trademark black and red stripes, of course, and a self-destruct mechanism, if you’re feeling stingy on what comes into unwanted hands), which contains a variety of attachments inside, like a violin case containing a sniper rifle, which you see in spy and action films.
- Inside are two - one for stealth and the other for aggression - barrels, the frame of the barrel-less Stetchkin, and two(or four, depending on how much the stetchkin kit is worth) magazines, one in .22 LR, and the other in our beloved, 10mm Auto, corresponding each to the width of the barrels. There should also by a screwdriver, syndie-type or otherwise, inside to configure the frame to accept either of the barrels.
- As for the attachments, there should be a universal suppressor. And what else, you may ask? A brass catcher to catch the casings(I recommend an increase in recoil recovery time if this is attached to the weapon, for balance purposes, and for there to be powder residue on the tiles and walls, though it should be almost invisible to the eye and require the Detective to scan them)
In regards to the barrels and the ammo - here is what I propose that I believe will add a lot to the experience:
- .22LR calibre barrel allows you to shoot through the keyholes of crates and the vents of lockers, due to its smaller circumference, though there is a lot more further benefits(or downsides) you could add to using this barrel and ammo to give it more modularity - which is almost always good, in SS13.
- 22LR does not penetrate and remains stuck in the victim, being able to be removed with scanning to locate the fragments and surgery to remove them, adding a new medical component to the job of detective.
*10mm does penetrate and causes a lot more brute damage than the .22, but firing it inside maintenance tunnels without the suppressor(I recommend increasing draw time for the Stetchkin when it has a suppressor) causes yourself and nearby PCs to suffer ear damage, going deaf for a while as a consequence.
TL;DR: There is a lot you can do with the game and the concept of ‘the Detective’, but the antags, as of now, compete with Security Officers and not the Detective, which is why their mains often feel out of place and often become Sec+ to compensate for this state of affairs. This can be avoided by augmenting Syndicate gear and objectives to be more conducive to stealthy playstyles, putting them at direct odds with the Detective - his scanner, wits, and when it comes down to it, the roar of a .38 special.
It does seem interesting the possibility to be able to check walls and such for bullets and maybe laser burns to determinate where it came from, most of the time you just know it’s a .357 or a 10mm just because they leave the empty casing on the scene. I’m not even sure if .357 or 10mm make a bigger or smaller hole when they hit a wall
However one needs to be very careful with adding more stealth options because we have an issue with a lot of players going the super sneak route and end up failing on producing any sort of antagonism for the round
There’s a lot of players that rush their stealth objectives last minute
There’s a lot of players that are new on the antag and get nervous when playing it so they try to be as cautious as possible and sometimes they even fail to do anything
The latter it’s understandable it happens to a lot of players but the former is something that it’s up for the most veteran players to try and change it, some try to do custom gimmicks and ignore their objectives if they get, for example, a double steal objective and from what i’ve read and discussed we don’t want to make a meta of ‘‘stealth’’ antags because at the end of the day they’re just… boring to play against and even to play as because sure, it feels good to pull a stealth antag round when no one suspected them and you carefully erased your steps and made it a perfect mission but if all your antag rounds are exactly the same you’re failing your job as an antagonists, it’s the same as if one were to go as loud as possible everytime they go antag and fight sec because they can, it doesn’t do much to the round other than make a few people go horizontal.
So in the end one needs to be careful when proposing more ‘‘stealth’’ type of things.
Main issue with detective is that people, whether they know it or not, use meta knowledge knowing that the detective can be an antagonist, and will decide to not listen to the detective if they actually gather clues and make a case to bring someone in to be apprehended, simply because of the off chance the detective might be a valid.
On the flip side you also have detectives who don’t use any of their tools and just go off of a whim and tell security that they need to arrest someone because they think they might be bad with no real investigation, which adds to the issue.
Detective has the joint issue of being played by people who play it for the gun, and people knowing that the detective can be an antagonist and using that knowledge to actively discredit the cases a detective can come fourth with… if rounds were longer dectective would be able to have more drawn out cases and more rp potential than just being there to be extra security with a gun.
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Absolutely 
The first thing that goes through my head when I see a detective/brig phys is “hey remember all those times this dude was an antag with brig access?”
I try my best to squash the little voice of metaknowledge but it’s definitely there.
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Just stop thinkin
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Imagine that being used to see drag marks across the floor.