Dayman banned by Tamumus

Ban Appeals Game Ban Appeals
1

CKEY: DaymanUS

Admin’s CKEY:Tamumus

Beestation Sage

Ban Type: Job ban

Ban Length: 7 days

Ban Date (MM/DD/YYYY): 4/16/2023

Round ID:43631

Ban Reason: As HOS: _Tried to have a dead traitor cremated for killing the captain. This isn’t prime murder!! _Doesn’t see what’s wrong and argumentative in ticket

Appeal Reason: I talked to my captain, they told me what happened and Prime murder was to be charged. I asked for permission to burn em, and was granted by my cap.

Additional Information: Captain was attacked and killed by the robotics maints while sec was trying to save them they were being dragged into the evac airlock to be spaced, before an officer grabbed the cap before they could be spaced. under space law this constitutes Prime murder “To commit the act of murder, with clear intent to kill, and clear intent or to have materially take steps to prevent the revival of the victim” after the captain was revived, the traitor was caught and killed mid combat with other officers. The captain returned to the brig and authorized the cremation of the traitor as they believe it warranted it aswell considering all the major crime and the Capital the had committed including bombing highly populated areas and killing/injuring multiple people. They did commit prime murder, command authorized burning their body, we were going to do it but didn’t in the end as we all began to get bwonk by the admin so we all held off till that was resolved. The body in the end was never cremated but someone did randomly take it from security to i’m unsure of what happened to it in the end. I was still job banned because I argued the point of it being prime murder, I feel as if a warning could be more effective, I want to continue learning but if I get banned for every little mistake this just hinders my ability to become a better sec player.

2

There were neither material steps nor clear intent. Material steps would be actually having thrown/hidden them in space, neither of which happened, and intent wise, I had plenty of reasons to want the captain’s body to myself away from security. (All access, powerful armour and sabre and full comms.) That I wanted the captain gone permanently was entirely assumed and very much not clear.

4

I would like to add. if they werent a 401, they were still a 405. Had all the legal ramifications to be allowed to execute, and permission from cap. Just silly that I did all of this by the book and still get banned. I try my best, truly.

5

Hey I was the captain of the round, I have no issues with anyone just trying to stick to what happened and not blaming people. I encountered the traitor at robotics, said hello to them then i was wordlessly attacked in the robotics mech charging area. They has Sleeping carp so I was stunned and when i managed i used my PTSD but they deflected my shots so I screamed for help. I managed to get into the halls where they continue to beat my ass till a moth officer comes and stares a bit before they start stun batoning the traitor before the both moved down. an officer starts dragging me away before the traitor starts attacking them a bit before more come and then the traitor is running up and down continuing to punch me to death. So I die at some point, they scare off the people and drag me down to the airlocks where I get stuck in when another officer grabbed me before I can be grabbed into space. I assumed they were going to space me so I authorized it after I was revived and informed they died being arrested but as all of us saw it as a capital crime and authorized it as the person had killed me and others, was dragging me to space, terrorizing people, and bombing a populated area. I was planning on having the chap do a funeral before you were cremated but we didn’t get that far because bwonk and the chap took a bit so I never brought it back up since I couldn’t find your body after you died. I mean if it comes does to it I said yes to it but the admin closed my pm before i could explain why it was capital in my opinion

6

Right, first let’s have a look at the attempt Catherine made on the cap’s life:

**Catherine use sleeping carp to attack the cap**
ATTACK: /(Catherine Brown) has grabbed /(Rook Everheart) aggressively (NEWHP: 99.2)  (Aft Primary Hallway (108, 91, 2))

 **Skip a lot of grabs and punches, cap get critted***
 ATTACK: /(Catherine Brown) has chops (Sleeping Carp) /(Rook Everheart) (NEWHP: -3.1)  (Aft Primary Hallway (108, 104, 2))

**Cap gets beaten to very low, then die from their wound (just a bit above departure airlock)**
ATTACK: /(Catherine Brown) has grabbed /(Rook Everheart) passive grab (NEWHP: -101.1)  (Departure Lounge (108, 66, 2))

**Cap dies in the airlock in departure but get rescued by security that kills Catherine (harmbatonned to death if you were wondering).**
ATTACK: /(Papilio) has grabbed /(Rook Everheart) passive grab (NEWHP: -101.1)  (Departure Lounge (108, 68, 2))

So. From this, Catherine indeed killed the cap and dragged them to an airlock, sec managed to get them.
Now, let’s have a look at your reaction:

SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Cap" (Fore Primary Hallway (100, 160, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Where is cathrine" (Fore Primary Hallway (100, 160, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Captain." (Brig (98, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "For the crime of MULTIPLE attempts to kill MULTIPLE command members" (Brig (98, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "I suggest we execute them." (Brig (98, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Perma." (Brig (98, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "WHAT" (Brig (98, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Brig Phys" (Brig (97, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Do not revice." (Brig (97, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Revive." (Brig (97, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "They are to not be allowed to live anymore." (Brig (97, 172, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Prime murder on multiple accounts." (Brig (97, 171, 2))
ATTACK: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) has grabbed /(Catherine Brown) passive grab (NEWHP: 54.7)  (Brig (96, 173, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Cremation" (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 158, 2))
TCOMMS: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) [Security] (spans:  command_headset ) "Cremation." (language: Galactic Common) (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 158, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Cremate them." (Central Primary Hallway (87, 125, 2))
SAY: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day) "Now." (Central Primary Hallway (87, 125, 2))

I receive an ahelp from Ice type about them being about to be cremated, see the HOS, cap and an officer dragging the body to the crematorium and starts the ticket (also smite the officer with the body to sleep, sorry again!)

Now, as for the ticket itself:

ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): why the fuck a
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): What?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): are you cremating brown?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): Yes? Captain ordered it.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): Remind me, what's the diff' beetween murder and prime murder?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): To commit the act of murder, with clear intent to kill, and clear intent or to have materially take steps to prevent the revival of the victim. Which they obviously did. When they killed our captain and bombed security.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): Right. What steps were taken to prevent revival?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): By not taking them to medbay? And by attacking my officers who were going to get the caps body?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): that doesn't qualify. If they tried to space or destroy or hide the body, it'll be okay, but that's not the case.
 - Put them on trial if yu want to have them executed
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): My trial was asking the captain himself. Captain can order the execution for someone commiting mass murders, correct? I asked if we can execute them perma (they were already dead anyways) And captain told me to do so. That was my trial. Trial by lawyer is not a right anyways, just something you can do for roleplay.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): Captain can order executions of peoples who committed capital crimes. You can't elevate punishment to execution either. So...now, you can either perma them under elevated sentencing, or put them on trial and execute if foud guilty. That's how spacelaw works
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): So... They commited prime murder... and youre still mad that my captain ordered an execution. Prime murder is capital is it not?
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): It is. But I explained to you twice this doesn't qualify as prime murder and you gave me no information to reconsider. Now, you either apply spacelaw properly or I'll have to escalate this
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): Seeing as they havent been incinerated, I see no reason to escalate. I was applying space law as I saw the situation. They commited prime murder (As I believed and was told), and I asked the captain for the permission to handle them as the laws were written. Captain told me to do so, so I allowed it. I understand that they were probably pretty mad about this, but thats what happens when you kill captain (in maint hidden away from everyone) and bomb security. I handled the situation appropriately, asked my captain for the correct authorization to do such an act, yet im still breaking rules im being told. At this point, I dont know what the hell even qualifies as a capital crime now. I am trying my best here, but it seems like the rules are based on feelings.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): I have to add, we didnt even perma kill them too. Lucky you caught us in time, but we still never did it.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): It's not based on feelings. The idea of spacelaw is that sec don't go around round removing antags except in a few situations. What I see here is an HOS rushing to burn a dead antag (that was already dead, so what's the point? they're already executed) without asking themselves if they should. If you don't see what's wrong here, I have to ask you to reread spacelaw very carefully, I'll aslo be apllying a week secban. This is very subpar for HOS
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaymanUS/(Charlie Day)->Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois): How is it subpar? I understand spacelaw. I had it open and was reading it WHILE we discussed our course of action. Ask my officers, they all say I am a good HOS. I was not quick to burn them, I literally asked for permission via my captain and went through the necessary steps to do so. They commited a capital crime, I asked my captain if we could burn them for murder on multiple account, attempted murder on multiple accounts, and he said yes. We both understood what they have done, and we came to a conclusion of burning them. I didnt skip any steps, I followed my laws, and I came to a sentence. I am doing everything by the book and its still breaking the rules? Do you want me to just do nothing as HOS? How can I keep a station peaceful when doing anything by law results in me being banned. This is getting so tiring. I try every single time to do everything by the book yet I get banned. Only the HOS's that do absolutely nothing never get yelled at.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tamumus/(Pauline Dubois)->DaymanUS/(Charlie Day): Cremating a dead traitor, who committed no capitals, is a huge redflag. You're not ready for HOS. Try other roles

From all of that, I deducted you were looking to RR Brown on improper grounds:
_Is that capital? It can get argued both ways, trials exists, their crimes would have indeed been worthy of capital.
_Should an HOS be running with sec in tow to the incinerator to burn a traitor after cap gave permission? No.

And what of Catherine during all that? Dumped in a bodyvag in perma while you were complaining about CC getting involved ICLY. I had serious doubt it was excellent conduct toward a fellow player.

All that considered, I still think you’re not ready for sec yet. You’re applying the wrong mindset to spacelaw. The HOS doesn’t exist to burn traitors. They’re here to whip security into stopping them and processing them properly

1 Like
7

Just asking, not trying to argue. Weve already been through the prime murder charge, I know now that even if he is going to be spaced thats not what it means by preventing revival. But what about the the enemy of the corp charge? No, we didnt bring that up during our discussions on what to do with her, but it still was applicable and a capital crime. Which from my knowledge I believe is punishable by death still. I still dont really understand what I am being banned for entirely. Was it conduct towards another player? Even if we werent going to burn em, they commited crimes that would allow no revival. If asking to get rid of their body was all I am being banned for I feel as if the punishment is pretty overboard. I just want to understand your point of view more, because from how I am reading the laws I was not in the wrong to get permission from my cap at all. If not a 401, they were still a 405. Would it have been better to just pacify or borg them?

I would also like to add, trials are not required either. Cap and I didnt have differing views on how to handle the issue, so we never had one. Not to mention we were in the middle of a trial when she bombed it.
Legal Representation and Trials
Prisoners are permitted to seek legal representation however you are under no obligation to provide or allow this.

Lawyers, and by extension the Head of Personnel, exist to serve as a guiding hand and the voice of reason within the judicial process, however they have zero authority over the brig, security personnel, prisoners, or sentencing.

The Lawyer’s security headset is a privilege not a right. Security personnel are under no requirement to listen to them and security channel abuse is to result in that privilege being revoked.
If the lawyer continuously acts as a disruptive influence Security are fully permitted to confiscate their access, remove them from the brig and bar their future access to it.

Trials may be performed for Capital Crimes and Permanent Detention, however there is no requirement to hold them. Forensic Evidence, Witness Testimony, or Confessions are all that is required for the Head of Security, Warden or Captain to authorize their sentence.

In cases where the Death Penalty is desired but the Captain or Acting-Captain is unable or unwilling to authorize the execution a trial is required to authorize the death penalty.

It seems as if a trial wasnt necessary, and we operated under the correct laws for execution.

8

you would need a trial to charge for EOTC:
Membership of the syndicate with no actual actions should be charged under Code 205. Please also consider that deconversion is preferable to charging under EOTC. This is a LAST RESORT, and a trial must be held before conviction of personnel that were at any time on the crew manifest. Heretics are exempt from the trial requirement, and have their sentence executed without a trial.

9

was killing my captain not enough actions to go into the 405 category? And performing a terror bombing? I am not trying to be combative, just trying to understand the rules as best I can.

Edit. Apologies, so you MUST have a trial to elevate it up to a 405?

10

To be completely fair admin with the whole “I had serious doubt it was excellent conduct toward a fellow player” they attacked me wordlessly, but also with meta knowledge now I was this person target to round remove. I’m sure if they managed to escape with me I’d have been stuffed in a locker or launched into space and “round removed”. I’ve been on the opposite end as a traitor and been round remove because I was valid by simply being place in the morgue or simply round removed because no body cares about reviving me, even today I was left on the floor for 20 minutes in a populate area till one person noticed then a medic traitor stuffed me in a bluespace bag and kept me in their back for the remaining round. I know it doesn’t feel good to be in this but it’s just part of the game that everyone goes through. The traitor either way would have been cremated and given a funeral or stayed in a body bag as they’re was no reason to revive them. Yes the whole train to the church can be seen as extreme but not a rare sight when cremations happens. Also as stated we couldn’t find the body after that all we knew was the brig phys said someone grabbed it, and the HOS question them on who had it

1 Like
11

I was a lawyer that round.

In my opinion just rp wise not being allowed to meet with my client until the last second (when the cap gave permission not you) wasnt that great. I get that you wanted to execute my client but that basically means involving lawyers according to sop.This is getting into just my personal opinion, but as Hos youre meant to hold sec’s leash and enforce sop, not kill as many antags as quickly as possible. You’re far from the worst hos I’ve seen and I suspect you’re somewhat new to the role.

Tldr: imo its more interesting to let stuff play out then to kill antags asap and not give legal protection

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12

I understand that now, and apologies for not letting you do so. I usually say screw a trial for most things that dont require one, but this isnt good to do. Most of the time court cases just get blown up, are filled with idiots talking every second, or are just a waste of time (in my own experience) but I understand that it really is bad practice to not let them happen. I would say I am somewhat new, so I am learning as best I can. Apologies again. and thank you for the half compliment lol.

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And I was going to deal with their body too, but I was dealing with a security team talking to me, command talking to me, lawyers talking, and admins PM’ing me. I didnt try to just forget about them, kinda just happened after having so many people in my ear.

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14

Also at this point if the admin team doesn’t want Violent Capital criminals cremated after death outside of changling please add it to the rules, I will make a whole suggestion page to avoid situation like these in the future. Dayman honestly isn’t even close to any awful level of hos and sec was pretty competent and I didn’t hear or see a word of shitsec outside of this maybe questionable situation with the lawyer stuff and court but nothing that aggreges.

1 Like
15

Thank you! I try my best to work by the book and aid the station as best I can. It sucks that I get banned while still trying to learn to the best of my abilities, but I think this situation will also further help me understand the nuances of space law even more. Hopefully I can maintain being a good HOS (okay I am not good but I am not terrible), especially in the eyes of the admins.

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16

Bear in mind that this is just my personal opinion: Antags are what make the round interesting and dynamic. When you round remove them without a trial the Lawyer, the Audience, the Antag player, and sec all have fewer opportunities to see interesting and exciting things like courtroom drama or bombings go down. I suspect that alot of SOP exists to make players roleplay more and give more opportunities for antags that mess up to keep the round interesting. Maybe the prisoner who gets sent to perma turns a new leaf and finds happiness in their gardening, or maybe they escape or come back, or maybe they plot revenge but never get the chance. These are all things dead players can’t do, and it makes the story that plays out less interesting as a whole.

Addendum: I used to play alot of HoS and sec on both bee and other servers, and I committed quite a few war crimes back in the day. But when I look back I don’t remember the crewmembers I nugged and remote shocked or the clowns I spaced, but the stories we made along the way. Compared to me when I started SS13 you’re an absolute saint, you’ll grow into a fine HoS <3

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17

Thank you for the kind words man, I will continue to grow and learn as best I can.

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18

Outside of heretics, you can not charge a crew member under EOTC. Being a syndicate agent is a separate, I believe 10 minute crime. EOTC primarily applies to hostile external forces like changelings, nukies and wizards.

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19

Thank you for letting me know!

20

Right.
I suggest you make a feedback thread if you want feedback, they’re pretty usefull. Or ask questions on discord, ban appeals are hardly the best place for that.

With that said, no new elements were brought to this, so I’ll sustain the ban.
About its lenght, you already had a recent one day ban from sec, so week job ban is the next logical step.

Appeal denied