Clarify What Power Gaming is as Security

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Security & Power Gaming
Power gaming is a subjective and nebulous topic, but it’s pretty self evident for some jobs. It’s reasonable for an engineer to have a full toolbelt and insulated gloves, but it’s not reasonable for a medical doctor to have the same thing, etc.

Security is quite a bit more difficult to quantify, since many of the power gaming items people seek out are related to combat which is typically the domain of security. I’ll put a few direct quotes from the rules page below.

The Rules

“Power gaming” is considered to be the act of prioritizing “winning” rather than sensible roleplaying.

Winning in this context to me means making antagonists red text since that is what the majority of security players seem to think. Thus, their combat performance are what most security officers try to increase the most.

For example, are security players who rush to the bar round start asking for flasks of quadruple sec to heal themselves, carrying a small arsenal of printed weaponry and swarming the geneticist the instant they discover thermal vision not committing some form of power gaming?

Roleplaying
Lore-wise, we don’t have lore, but our upstream TG says that SS13 is an advanced research facility NOT a military installation and that all of the antagonists and events that happen in rounds don’t occur in day to day life. Doesn’t that make what some security members do power gaming as they gear up to prepare for threats that in RP they don’t expect to actually see?

Loopholes
There exists a couple ways people can weasel around SOP and server rules right now.

Security Officers may not use Armory equipment.

“It’s not armory equipment, I printed it at the sec lathe and used a mindshield firing pin!”

Security Officers are permitted to carry any non-lethal weaponry.

“I had my energy gun on stun the entire time, so it’s non-lethal weaponry!”

Security Officers are permitted to conduct searches, provided there is reasonable evidence/suspicion that the person in question has committed a crime.

“I saw them go lock themselves in a dorm room for 30 seconds, they were probably spawning in items with their uplink!”

I’m not an admin so I can’t speak on this part, but I would imagine people can get away with variations of these excuses.

Conclusion
A line needs to be drawn somewhere. Maybe the first example of thermal vision, quad sec, and lathe weapons with mindshield firing pins isn’t power gaming. What if they had full fireproofed clothes, the crossbreeds that stabilizes your health and the one that stops you from slipping on water, meth pills, a combat knife in their boot, telekinesis & thermal vision, a full med kit, tribal talisman, bone bracers, and the armored greatcoat that HOS loves to give out because it provides slightly more armor?

All these things can be justified technically. However I think it’s quite obvious that such an extreme is too far, so there should be concrete rulings on what is or is not power gaming. I’m not saying that we should completely remove securities ability to counter antagonists, no security team is just as bad as having shitsec.

My Opinions/Rant

  • Thermal vision is OP, its a literal traitor item that takes up your eye slot, yet normal crew can just get it for free from the geneticist with no downsides? Not to mention how difficult it is to combat against anyone who has it.

  • Soporific slugs are insanely strong and I am glad a PR was made for their full removal. One hit armor piercing dizziness with a two hit being a hard stun FROM RANGE is outrageous, no one likes instant win buttons and if you hit one slug you’ve essentially won.

  • The “Us vs Them” mentality security creates is the cause of a lot of issues mentioned by @Axel in his problems with beestation thread. No wonder everyone tries to stealth antag when security does everything in their power to round remove or neuter you the second they find out you are valid. And the antags that DO go loud, typically “power game” themselves to a ludicrous degree just so they don’t get dunked on by security who I would say are power gaming themselves as well.

  • Security’s shtick of “We’re the oppressors. We wear literal Nazi boots, have the Metrocops baton from HL2, and our masks have pre-programmed abuses” is funny until people start taking it seriously as inspiration.

  • The instant assumption that your fellow security members are always correct. I had a round a while ago where I managed to kill and impersonate a security officer and I used that power to plant evidence and frame somebody innocent, ultimately leading to their execution. None of the evidence held up to scrutiny, yet no one questioned it when I said “Oh yeah he prime murdered that guy, found him holding the brain in maints.” and he got necked without a second thought.

  • Complete failure to follow SOP at every step of the way. It’s really not that hard people, set a timer, THEN strip & search them. Don’t leave people buckle cuffed, and take them off arrest once they’re in the brig. So many people fail to do these basic things it is depressing.

I freely admit that I am biased against security. Hell, in the forums I was labelled as “The feds worst nightmare” by Axel. But there is a reason for it. Look at Goon security, no one hates security on Goon. Maybe we should reflect on why Bee & TG security & non-security players have such a complex relationship.

This rant section went on way longer than the main post but it was far more fun to write.

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Kero feels powergaming is a mindset based in ones intentions, rather than based in the specific actions one takes.

Kero presents two officers which have mechanically acted almost the same, but only one of them is powergaming:

A security officer who roleplays as a drunk rushes to the bar and gets as much booze as they can. This will probably include quadruple sec which will heals them, but they don’t ultimately care what they get and will drink it casually throughout the shift regardless of combat because they are roleplaying a drunk. Kero imagines they have a substantial chance of healing damage in combat through the use of quadruple sec.

A security officer who has taken the traits to maximize the amount of booze they can consume rushes the bar and demands quadruple sec. They then proceed not to drink anything until they are injured and perhaps even curse being in a drunken state because they consumed too much and can’t communicate properly in a crisis situation.

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Kero admits he did not read the rest of your very long post beyond making this point and apologizes if he missed a beat.

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Not really. Security expects to be involved in combat every shift. That is their job. We have SoP to limit extreme preparation. I can’t order 5 mindshield crates and 3 religious supplies crates and 5 laser gun crates for no reason. While we might have a blob or cultist, but I am not allowed to over prepare for them “just in case”.

Loopholes

Never seen this. I’m sure it happened, but the spirit of the rule is that you can’t carry equipment that is considered armory “tier” for no reason. If I saw this as HoS I would scream at them. Also, an admin would scream at them.

Again, I have never seen someone say this. And again, it won’t fly with me or the admin.

Never seen this as well. I have seen unjustified searches on green, but never someone saying something like that. If you are referring to acting on meta knowledge, then that is against the rules as you know.

I’m sure all of these happened, because shitsec, but they would all result in a bwoink I would bet money on it.

Rant

These are not really related to power gaming, but I will address them anyway.

This is a problem with Geneticist. It’s all overpowered. Being “space” proof removes and entire armor line from viability. Thermal is insane. The smell one is insane. I don’t even know all the one we have. We don’t even have to ask for it most of the time. Geneticist just mass produces them and hands them out like candy. I’m not allowed to have thermal, but everyone else is?

This also applies to nanites. They are also overpowered and most of time there is just a public nanite implanter every shift. Don’t get me started on xenobio. I see xenobio on security much more rarely, almost never, because of the isolated nature of xenobio. Most of the time we don’t even know if we have a xenobio, let alone one that know how to make stuff.

If you expect me to not get nanites or genes if they are literally right in front of me, you are crazy.

The simple reason is that that is all we have against the complete chaos. That is the one thing that most of the time is correct. Like you said it’s a big, HUGE even, weakness.

But have you tried playing security where you are always second guessing your fellow officers? You would lose your mind. Have you tried playing warden when every time someone brigs a person in you asks for more than just their officer testimony? Well, I have. And let me tell you it’s absolute insanity.

The “us vs them” is as much our problem as in normal crew’s problem. The entire crew also have a bias against security. At least we have a reason as state above.

Sometimes trying as much as possible to bait us or provoke us so that they can scream “shitsec” when we arrest them or beat them up. Trespassing in the brig every chance they get. Refusing to leave so that we must kick them out.

My Rant

Here is my rant. Security is the hardest job on the station. It’s easy for people to scream “shitsec” when they don’t even know what it’s like. We are under geared always and understaffed most of the time. Anatags can kill us on sight. They have all the initiative and all the literally OP gear. They don’t have to worry about SoP or anything. They can lie on the radio or in person all they want, and we have to investigate. And they can just hack away.

You and me both buddy. Especially the timer before search. About 9/10 wardens do not follow it. I will say that it’s easy to correct by just reducing the sentence by a minute or two.

Unsetting people from arrest is such a common and big problem. As are people being set to arrest with no reason given. So, then we arrest a person, and they keep asking why, but we don’t know why, but we can’t let him go because someone might have just forgotten to set the reason. So, then everyone is asking who set them to arrest and why on the radio, etc, etc.

It’s also crazy to me that people expect you to follow SoP when shit is hitting the fan. I understand that you are a special snowflake that has rights and shit, but I’m kind of fucking busy in the moment so maybe stop crying because your brig sentence is 1 minute too long.

People are dying, trespassing into the brig is rampant, then when we arrest them, they cry “shitsec” and people come and make a mini riot in front of the brig. The station is being bombed, anyone can walk into brig drop a maxcap or chem bomb behind a plant and blow us all up, radio is down, don’t know what the fuck is happening.

I am the only person on the command staff, the detective is beating a person insisting they are a ling and that we need to GIB THEM NOW, warden is not properly searching people so the assistant broke the cell window, officers keep forgetting to add an arrest reason, there is no one in cargo, the light bulbs just popped, captain just went and died in maints, people keep screaming about threats on the radio, “CULT!”, “NUKIES!”, “MIRIAM IS EVIL!” (she is a felind and that is why they are screaming), “THE CHEF TRIED TO KILL ME!”, we have no chap + ratioed + no felind wenches + no meta friends + got bwoinked + accused of power gaming + fake + gay.

Try playing security. Feel the paranoia. You are one shove away from death just everyone else. Feel the eyes of the admins staff watching and the bloodthirsty crew looking for any reason to scream how shit you are. Look upon the legacy of the people remembered in security all for being shit, while all the good ones are forgotten.

Why even?

Why do I even play security or let alone HoS? To rise above all the chaos, to red text the fucking antags dead to rights. To duke on the nukies that have all the gear and time, while the captain is brain dead. To robust someone who had all the advantages and the initiative. Also to facilitate roleplay when I can. HOWEVER… Nooooo you can’t just hunt the valid you have to roleplay! Haha funny energy stick go brrrrr.

IN CONCLSUON the average shift as sec.

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You must roleplay meme

Seriously why play on a roleplay server if all you want to do is win, and maybe roleplay on the side, which only happens, I assume, when we bwoink you or others, or when a well known sec players gets punished. There are servers that are solely focused on combat and can provide a much better experience for people with this mindset.

Also, others breaking the rules don’t give you an excuse to break the rules yourself, you are just adding fuel to the fire. If you see someone breaking the rules, report them. If you break the rules and your reasoning is “But have you looked at X? He’s powergaming and not roleplaying”, you are still getting the boot.

About the main interesting points in this thread, KeroKero the frog highlighted what’s missing in the original post. Mainly, the intent of the players, that’s what’s we look for when dealing with powergaming. Just because a specific example isn’t written in the rules or SOP doesn’t mean it’s not covered, that’s what the Rules as Intended are for, and what “Use common sense” in R7 mean. If an officer is acquiring loot that benefit him only with the intent of winning, completely disregarding RP. He’s gonna get bwoinked.

The rules get much looser and less restrictive when you put effort into your roleplay and play out a properly fleshed out character with motivations.That’s how you obtain IC motivations for most things. Stop playing “You the gamer, but in Space Station 13”.

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Relax admeme I am joking about hunting valids. I always encourage RP whenever I can. For example I always prefer perma brig over executions unless, funnily enough they ask for it.

Edit: Indeed there are more combat focused power gaming servers. However I don’t feel like learning other code bases and I am emotionally attached to Bee.

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  1. OP clearly haven’t played security in years

  2. Antags RARELY roleplay and will just prefer to wordlessly murder anyone that stand in their way

  3. You are forgetting that antags only get jailed FOR A FEW MINUTES AND GO FREE
    (unless it’s some Delta alert capable antag)

But you are correct, security players are biased and will lean to that specific personality and methods which everyone hate -but for a good reason

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Yes what Kate said. I also got the feel OP didn’t play security recently. And yes it’s not like antags roleplay every round and here comes shitsec to ruin all the fun. It’s not like that. It all goes hand in hand with my previous posts about more systems because these are just symptoms and not the root cause.

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Direct consequence of game mechanics. Choose to stand still and type out an elaborate monologue and risk getting stunned and round removed, or make the first move and remove the threat. Anyone can shove you and perma stun you against a wall until help arrives.

Remove shove and suddenly regular crew are much less threatening.

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OP Clearly haven’t played security in years

Yes I have, that’s why I made this post. Too many fellow security people go out of their way to acquire as many tools as possible just to make antags redtext, just look at what Nanibyte said above.

Antags RARELY roleplay and will just prefer to wordlessly murder anyone that stand in their way

Look at what I said right here:

No wonder everyone tries to stealth antag when security does everything in their power to round remove or neuter you the second they find out you are valid.

Maybe don’t throw the book at people every chance you get and they won’t murder you. Yesterday there was a round where someone was being held hostage in xenobio with a TTV, and the traitor demanded the hypospray, magboots, cash, and passage to lavaland. It was good fucking RP. You know what I had to do as a security officer? Stop valid hunting fucks and other officers who didn’t want to RP from barging in, because “Lol we can just clone them idiot.”.

You are forgetting that antags only get jailed FOR A FEW MINUTES AND GO FREE

You forget they lose their gamer gear, often get tracking implants, and are subject to heavy monitoring and often times demotions. There is more to punishment than just getting brigged you know.

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Not really. Security expects to be involved in combat every shift. That is their job.

We are an RP server. Lore says you don’t expect to be in combat every shift. What more is there to say?

Never seen this. I’m sure it happened, but the spirit of the rule is that you can’t carry equipment that is considered armory “tier” for no reason. If I saw this as HoS I would scream at them. Also, an admin would scream at them.

Where is the line drawn for this. Should telescoping shields be counted as armory tier, since riot shields aren’t standard equipment and are initially in the armory? I think the lathe should be moved inside the armory but that is an argument for a different day.

Again, I have never seen someone say this. And again, it won’t fly with

I have. Once items are taken out of the armory, they are almost never handed back in.

I have seen unjustified searches on green, but never someone saying something like that.

“I have never seen this unjustified search. However, I have seen unjustified searches before.” What. Unjustified is unjustified no matter what reason, just insert different text where I put it.

This is a problem with Geneticist. It’s all overpowered.

Yep. Still slightly better than xenobiology.

This also applies to nanites.

Nanites are a different story. Yes they are powerful, however they can get corrupted, modified against your will, and if someone wants to, they can instantly stun, mute, deafen, and blind you. Risk/Reward going on unlike xenobio or geneticists. They also take skill to create, its more than just following a recipe book.

If you expect me to not get nanites or genes if they are literally right in front of me, you are crazy.

I got banned for power gaming for taking a free mining suit I was offered. So yes, I do expect you not to take things just because they are in front of you.

But have you tried playing security where you are always second guessing your fellow officers? You would lose your mind. Have you tried playing warden when every time someone brigs a person in you asks for more than just their officer testimony? Well, I have. And let me tell you it’s absolute insanity.

That is why there is a Warden job. They are SUPPOSED to be in charge of brigging, timers, searches, etc. Security officers should patrol, arrest ne’er do wells and remand them into the custody of the Warden. They can figure things out. In practice, no one ever does this and the warden simply monitors cameras and sets wanted levels.

The entire crew also have a bias against security.

Why shouldn’t they? Some, not all, officers take a fun police position. Oh, you got a knife to kill monkeys to get organs for a bounty? Contraband, 5 minutes in the brig and we’re confiscating your legally acquired toolbelt too. Don’t be a dick, and you won’t have a bias against you.

Security is the hardest job on the station.

It is, if you want to do it WELL. Shitsec is very easy. And if you can’t tell from me disagreeing with you at just about every step of this way I would say you fall under the latter category.

They have all the initiative and all the literally OP gear.

They should, most antags are lone wolves. They need to be a one man army, and to do that they need their gamer gear. Don’t whine if you get beat be a desworder when you charge in with a baton, what did you expect to happen?

We are under geared always and understaffed most of the time.

What are you smoking? At the times I play, security is almost always adequately staffed. There might be no warden/HOS, but you’ve got four security officers and a detective. That is plenty to deal with most threats outside of nukies/xenos/blob. Undergeared? Too many wardens and HOS hand out armory equipment like its candy and a disappointing amount of people try to find situations in which they can “justifiably” use the contraband they looted off people. I could write a whole lot more on this but I’m cutting it short to move on.

I am the only person on the command staff, the detective is beating a person insisting they are a ling and that we need to GIB THEM NOW, warden is not properly searching people so the assistant broke the cell window, officers keep forgetting to add an arrest reason, there is no one in cargo, the light bulbs just popped, captain just went and died in maints, people keep screaming about threats on the radio, “CULT!”, “NUKIES!”, “MIRIAM IS EVIL!” (she is a felind and that is why they are screaming), “THE CHEF TRIED TO KILL ME!”, we have no chap + ratioed + no felind wenches + no meta friends + got bwoinked + accused of power gaming + fake + gay.

Skill issue. Just kidding, but its part of the job. Don’t pick the hardest job on station to do well, then complain when its difficult to do well.

To rise above all the chaos, to red text the fucking antags dead to rights.

Thanks for proving my point.

To duke on the nukies that have all the gear and time, while the captain is brain dead. To robust someone who had all the advantages and the initiative.

You better be saying this ironically. You have numbers, coordination, easy access to powerful weaponry, most of the times the AI bends over backwards to help you, and you claim they have all the advantages? A desworder vs a single seccie, the desword wins every time. A desworder vs two seccies, it becomes a lot more even very quickly. Numbers almost always beats a single powerful individual.

Also to facilitate roleplay when I can.

Based off your answers I highly doubt this.

I always prefer perma brig over executions

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I have never seen the former outside of detectives, it is always the latter. Play bartender and see how many security come over round start asking for quadruple sec. I’ve done a gimmick where I only serve non alcoholic drinks just to spite people who non stop bug people.

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This is you and me by the way.

Why start with armor, a baton, or a disabler then? Why not just start with nothing since we don’t expect combat? We must draw the line somewhere and that is why we have alert levels for. Like I said only certain levels of preparation are allowed.

This is a pointless argument. I never saw people make lethal guns from the lathe and insist that it’s okay to use them because they are not from the armory. If they did they would be breaking the rules. I do agree on the lathe maybe.

This was not your initial argument. This was:

Your example implied that someone insist that they can keep or take a potentially lethal weapon because it’s capable of non-lethal damage. When I say it like that, indeed, this happens sometimes. They should not be given permission to keep or take it.

Regarding return weapons, this is partly true. However, I think some people are just lazy rather then trying to power game.

You got me here. However, I did only see this once. And this person was breaking the rules.

We don’t need to talk about balance here. I agree that the there are risks, but the risk to reward ratio is extremely skewed towards massive rewards.

Anecdotal evidence. You conveniently forgot to mention the context of the ban even if it was relevant proof.

From an RP perspective as well if someone offered me a syringe IRL that makes me immune to the vacuum of space you better believe I would take it. I have never seen someone get banned for something like using a public nanite chamber or using a space adapt syringe that is just standing in the medbay lobby.

If there is a warden and it happens that often there isn’t. This is a misrepresentation of my argument. I never said it’s not the warden job to do those things. I said it’s maddening and not their job to makes sure every prisoner is guilty before they are bridged.

Anecdotal evidence. Misrepresentation of my arguments.

Attacking me instead of my arguments and misrepresenting my positions.

What are you even talking about? I never said take away antags gear. When did I say that I charge desworders with a stun baton? Huh?

Both of us don’t have hard data here. I can only say my experience and you can say yours. Mine is that security is the most understaffed department in game. Compare security to something like medical which is always staffed. I would check the crew manifest and see 10 people in medical and maybe 2 officers. There is often no warden at all. Other times we would be staffed to the gills. It’s more understaffed then staffed in my experience.

Misrepresenting my point AGAIN. I was not complaining that is hard. It is. But I know that and that is the point. I was trying to get a point across that if some slight violation of Space Law or SoP happen, they are not always the result of shitsec, but instead can be a consequence of multiple factors we find ourselves in.

You assume a lot of which you can’t. We might not have the numbers. In fact, they might have the numbers. We usually don’t have coordination because people won’t listen, or radio can be down. The AI can be a problem as much as it can be a help. We might have weapons if we are on blue, and the armory has not been blown up. We might not.

Next, the situation you present is completely unrealistic. A traitor will not start a fight when two security officers are present. What is much more likely is that the traitor is just going to bait or trick one officer and the desword them before they can even react.

If it’s known that they are a traitor beforehand then your argument applies. Which I don’t understand, of course, because I never said something that contradicts this statement that two officers are better then one. In fact, I always try to encourage a buddy system.

Ad hominem. But I’ll keep it civil.

The actual point

What do you expect me to do? That is our job. I am sick of people using this argument. That is what the game systems facilitate. For us and for them! Yeah, I am having fun red texting the antags. And they are having fun trying to get the green text.

This applies to you as well admeme. Siting on their throne demeaning that I RP with system that do not facilitate it. Demanding that I risk my own enjoyment so that maybe some RP can happen. They didn’t say it like that, but I FEEL LIKE THAT. People always attack us security like we ALWAYS ruin all the fun.

What do I care the rest of the server is bored? Why is it my responsibility to put my personal enjoyment on the line so that MAYBE other people can have some fun? If I had a magic want to wave to make everyone have fun I would do it. But I don’t. People don’t want to do that. No matter how many “more gimmick” post we all make if we have the systems that we have.

We don’t disagree on the core of the issues. The simple fact is the Bee is stuck in a situation where RP is enforced with rules, yet system that we have encourage LRP behavior. Whether is stealth antags who never RP, shitsec who will hunt then down the second they sniff them. This is all a symptom of that core problem. I don’t know what the exact solution is, but I think we all agree that clearly something is wrong.

Real Conclusion sponsored by admemes™

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We are getting far out of the scope for the original point of the post which was just to specify what is powergaming and what is not. But I’m having fun typing responses so I’ll keep doing it.

Why start with armor, a baton, or a disabler then? Why not just start with nothing since we don’t expect combat? We must draw the line somewhere and that is why we have alert levels for. Like I said only certain levels of preparation are allowed.

Because those are non lethal weaponry designed to deal with the petty crime and rowdiness that would be expected in RP?

This is a pointless argument. I never saw people make lethal guns from the lathe and insist that it’s okay to use them because they are not from the armory. If they did they would be breaking the rules. I do agree on the lathe maybe.

I have. Its not that common since advanced e-guns are behind a tech disk now, but it still occasionally happens.

This was not your initial argument.

Irrelevant, the point still stands on its own.

I think some people are just lazy rather then trying to power game.

Acts on good faith for their security buddies, but not assuming good faith for antags. This really shows the “Us vs Them” mentality I was talking about.

I agree that the there are risks, but the risk to reward ratio is extremely skewed towards massive rewards.

What exactly are the rewards, sec huds/armor and belt that you can just emag/spear/armblade into any security locker and get easily? The security ID? The biggest benefit is removing the officer from the round the rest are marginal.

Anecdotal evidence. Misrepresentation of my arguments.

If you want to claim all of my arguments should be disregarded due to anecdotal evidence, I could do the same to you. We are speaking in terms of “often” “usually” “I have seen” etc. because that is all we have as non-admins.

Attacking me instead of my arguments and misrepresenting my positions.

Ignoring the primary importance of the first two sentences.

What are you even talking about? I never said take away antags gear. When did I say that I charge desworders with a stun baton? Huh?

You said they had overpowered equipment, saying they need to be nerfed. Its in the definition.

Misrepresenting my point AGAIN.

What exactly am I misrepresenting? We are both agreeing that being good security is the hardest job on station. We just have different opinions on what good security is.

We might not have the numbers.

Deputy duffel bags are a thing that are very useful and exist for this exact purpose.

We usually don’t have coordination because people won’t listen

People will listen to good leaders, not much else to it. If some no-name showed up trying to perform a group gimmick like Axel does, no one would bother showing up. It’s unfortunate but its the truth, people metafriend and will remember who is competent and who is not.

What do you expect me to do? That is our job.

We disagree on what security is, I view security as more in-game moderation than actual police. Admins note things as “IC issues”. That is what sec should be primarily concerned with, not making antagonists red text just for the sake of it. Knowing their goals and how to make them lose could be considered metagaming.

That is what the game systems facilitate.

True of all TG based servers.

What do I care the rest of the server is bored? Why is it my responsibility to put my personal enjoyment on the line so that MAYBE other people can have some fun?

Losing is fun™. This is a rules for me, not for thee situation. You don’t want to let antagonists round remove you, so you attempt to round remove them or neuter them to such an extent that they can no longer function as an antagonist. Can’t you see the dichomoty here?

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Yes. I will simply reiterate that I believe security power gaming whether it’s present or not or in what quantity is just a symptom of the system we have in place.

Okay fine. But still, we have alert levels that dictate how much we can prepare.

In any case it’s against the rules.

You can’t just change the point and ignore the last one made regardless of if your new point is true or not. I mean you can, but you know.

You can’t assume my intentions. Like I said it’s not a mentality is just a fact that we must rely on other security officers since it’s all we have.

I was talking about the nanites. It’s not important anyway.

I didn’t claim all your arguments where anecdotal evidence. I said that your argument that you got banned for a miner suit or whatever and the one time that a security officer was shitcurity. Both of those are anecdotal because they are your personal experience that you then used as empirical evidence for other points.

If, for example, you wanted to prove that your miner suit ban is not anecdotal and is in fact relevant for the power gaming discussion then show me the ban.

The other one is just a shitcurity scenario you saw or made up to further you point. It’s not real evidence.

Please tell me where my anecdotal evidence is?

I didn’t ignore it. I said it how it is. You present my position as a person who doesn’t care about round health or being a goodsec. Then you call me shitsec. What part did I ignore?

It’s true. I said their gear was overpowered for what it is. But that is indeed the point. My statements did imply that I believe it should be nerfed with I don’t believe. I just said OP as a force of habit.

You misrepresent me as complaining about security being too hard. That is not what I said or meant.

Deputies are more of a liability then an asset. Believe me I tried to make deputies work. If a person wanted to play security, then they would have played security. It’s very unrealistic to think that you can find deputies easily or reliability.

That is not what I mean. I’m not talking about a group gimmick. People will not listen when it conflicts with what they intended to do that round even if it’s good for the station or even themselves because they might find it boring. If I tell my officers to stay in pairs which is always a good idea, regardless of who it’s coming from, some will just choose to “forget” because they don’t feel like having a buddy. That is what I mean.

Sure, but we are MRP and TG’s main server is LRP.

When I say red text, I don’t mean that literally. I just like to meme it. Like I said I always prefer to not execute and to facilitate RP when possible.

Losing in not fun. That is admeme propaganda. Having an interesting death is fun. Getting unexpectedly and one-sidedly killed is not. I will, finally, repeat once again that the current situation is a consequence of the system rather than the player’s fault.

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Anyway… To interject with a point that I think NaniByte has been trying to make:

We have LRP expectations for our antagonists but MRP expectations for our SEC officers. I too would be paranoid as a SEC player because I know I could be killed with no escalation procedure by antagonists because it’s allowed.

We probably should try to bring antagonists rules/gameplay into the MRP era if we truly want MRP on this server.

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okay so, when was the last time you printed a gun at the sec lathe?

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I don’t because I think it is powergaming, hence this post asking for clarification.

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I think getting quad sec isn’t powergaming, it makes you drunk fast and honestly don’t think in the big picture it helps sec officers survive fights much. Small weapon arsenal is powergaming if not on red alert, even then carrying more weapons than needed could mean more weapons lost/giving antags greater access to weapons, and thermal vision does need to be improved (as does most mutations) to have some kind of weakness/ways to bypass it’s effects like by drinking drinks that make you colder.

These loopholes are what the warden is for, enforcing the policies and reprimanding officers who act like that.

Coming from a ex-admin, the first two excuses are bad and I personally wouldn’t except them. The last one I would consider meta-knowledge? It’s a great spot to spawn in items in privacy but ICly there could be other reasons you are in there, including to sleep like you would IRL and assuming all the lock themselves in there are antags punishes people who do actually sleep/change clothes in those rooms for privacy.

Until the last few days I haven’t even heard anyone mention anything about Soporific slugs, they’ve been in the game for a long time and I think it use to be a lesser known round that people don’t pay attention to because it doesn’t say it’s use in it’s name/lethal. I don’t think it should be removed outright: just make it not pierce armor (can’t even get piercing syringes without research), or locked behind two levels of weapons research (you often have to beg science to research weapons from my personal experience), or require you to physically input morphine into the lauthe in order to print it (this would stop the infinite amount being made if it took like 15 units of morphine to make one dart). I firmly believe that removing any non-lethal option sec has to dealing with people just puts them a step further to using lethals.

100% agree with this, which is also why I personally play warden and really enjoy enforcing SOP on people. People just don’t take action to help regulate each other and improve sec. If you see another officer break SOP, call them out on it. Might not get anywhere but you are doing your job and helping improve things. If you’re a warden, ensure that people don’t just print out weapons or if needed, just move the entire sec lauthe into your office/armory.

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I’m spoilering the rant part because while arguing is fun, it gets away from the point of the thread which it seems most people don’t have an issue with.