You can print bean bag slugs, buck shots, slugs and incendiary ammunition at a hacked autolathe. Not even if security allowed the bartender to print lethal ammo round start would it not be power gaming.
This isn’t the first offense of powergaming on Bebes’ side.
I don’t really disagree that here should be punishment for powergamers. But permanent ban for this being the first time an admin noticed is a little hamfisted.
So, having spent a good part of that round around the bar, I hope throwing my two cents as a third party won’t be an issue. I can corroborate a lot of the story in the original post. I’ve only really seen the shells used once as described and the tone around the bar in general was lighthearted and positive.
Now as for the reason itself, I will agree that rushing the lathe to print lethals “just in case” is powergamey, but I’d argue it falls more on the overprepared side of it than the validhunt side in this case and while a bwoink was appropriate (especially as a repeat offense), the permaban seems to come off mostly from disagreeing with the inconsistencies in moderation of the topic rather than the powergaming issue itself.
I’m aware of the general discussion about Xenobio and Botany powergaming as a whole but, even ignoring those, there are many ways in which some players tend to get overprepared and it seems to me like a rather gray area to decide on IC/OOC punishment to begin with, let alone a permanent removal.
Yea, when I started playing Bee at <30 hours I would always make a cut off make-shift shotty when I played curator or chaplain and loading it with incendiaries.
The only punishment I ever received was a confiscation and a brigying, though most of the time no one cared.
Alrighty, here’s my initial response.
First: There was a related player report active at the time when the ban was put in place. As stated when I closed that, it may (aka will) be used as evidence here as well. That report can be found here…
https://forums.beestation13.com/t/bebes-kidz-player-report/12350/8
In that report it makes the accusation that Bebe keeps traitor gear (aka controband) when operating as a security officer. This is not allowed as per security SOP, and dependent on the equipment can also constitute powergaming.
Now, let’s go ahead and copy paste the entire ban reason, just for the record…
Powergaming, running around as bartender with at least 20 each of buckshot and inscindiary rounds on green alert with no threat to their person. Doesn’t seem to understand why this isn’t allowed. Also attempted to argue in essence “I’m just playing my character.” Well, if that’s your character then allow me to play the role of a Nanotrasen HR representative. We’re re-evaluating your employment contract. You’re still more than welcome to play on golden, where rule M2.2 is not applicable. You can appeal this when you understand that “But my character” is not an excuse for violating server rules.
Let’s unpack this some.
Furthermore, the duration as noted in the ban reason is “until you understand “my character” and “just in case” are not valid reasons for [this behavior].” This criteria, evident from posts so far in this thread, has not yet been met.
Let’s go through the ticket too, shall we?
[2021-04-13 13:05:23.514] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): hey why are you carrying around a TBoH with lethal ammunition in it?
[2021-04-13 13:05:55.001] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): Because the beanbags fit in my bag, and I like to be prepared
[2021-04-13 13:06:05.959] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): thats powergaming you know?
[2021-04-13 13:06:15.951] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): you are getting lethal “just incase”
[2021-04-13 13:06:18.185] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): Powergaming?
[2021-04-13 13:06:36.063] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): Yeah, like how I have a shotgun just incase. I start with a weapon to defend my bar.
[2021-04-13 13:07:02.985] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): yes you are allowed to carry a shotgun around with beanbags as ammunition
[2021-04-13 13:07:15.949] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): not incendiary and shotgun slugs
[2021-04-13 13:07:26.556] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): Yeah, I don't see the issue. I'm just carrying ammunition for my gun.
[2021-04-13 13:07:54.959] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): lethal ammunition
[2021-04-13 13:08:02.185] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): wish you arent allowed to carry
[2021-04-13 13:08:06.858] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): Hey, botany has space lube super nades, sec gets disablers and lasguns, chem gets meth and healing, xenobio's got the super extracts, I'm just carrying shells.
[2021-04-13 13:08:49.587] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): well that there job
[2021-04-13 13:09:19.462] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): so you are saying sec is also powergaming for having flashproof glasses and bang proof headsets?
[2021-04-13 13:09:22.205] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): This really isn't an issue. I'm just carrying ammunition to defend myself.
[2021-04-13 13:09:54.927] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): so it should be allowed for anyone to have a lethal weapon then?
[2021-04-13 13:10:47.465] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): No, I'm just saying I'm not, and they're not. I'm carrying ammunition, that's all. If I wanted to powergame, I'd make meth pills that outheal space and play god as a chemist or something, not make some shells and store them in a bag.
[2021-04-13 13:10:58.138] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El): bartender has a gun license.
[2021-04-13 13:11:37.445] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Doktorwueue/(D.A.-N.1-El)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): a gun license for a non-lethally armed shotgun and thats includes non-lethal ammo the beanbag shells
[2021-04-13 13:15:27.963] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #4: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): I'd hardly call it powergame to make riot darts at a hacked lathe
[2021-04-13 13:17:36.443] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #4: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): I don't think it's expected everyone will always stay out of the law's path 100% either. There are good reasons to carry lethals and to go in places you're not meant to that are situational, and having lethals handy is never not a bad idea. It's reasonable to expect an attack some the cat surgeon or some other nonsense I think, I've racked a lot of kills on him using slugs.
[2021-04-13 13:20:50.228] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): So, here is the issue. You’re provided access to a shotgun with beanbag rounds to defend your bar at round start. Lathes that you have access to under normal circumstances only print beanbags. The specific rule to reference is M2.2, which states “Do not seek/acquire items that have no relevance to your job without an appropriate IC reason.” The first subpoint in that states “This includes preemptively seeking self defense items “just in case”…” So, here is the issue, you’re on a station, on green alert, with what one would assume is a normal non-threataning crew. You don’t blast someone with buckshot or dragons breath rounds because they’re drunk and disorderly, you call sec or beanbag them and throw them out yourself.
[2021-04-13 13:23:28.859] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): My character is a very loose-cannon and irresponsible person. She loves being armed to the teeth, and likes to be prepared. It's assumed, as far as I can tell, people know about the cat surgeon and other maint-lurking threats that show their face. I don't understand why me having weapons is powergame, or really bad. I rarely use them, and when I do, it's for the reasons I should.
[2021-04-13 13:24:11.155] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms)->Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album): Character personality is not an excuse for violation of server rules.
[2021-04-13 13:24:32.579] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Bebes_Kidz/(Sandalum Album)->Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms): Yeah, but it's an in-character reason, she's motivated to self-preserve.
[2021-04-13 13:26:36.029] ADMINPRIVATE: Sergei Koralev/(Breaks-The-Comms) has created a local permanent server ban for Bebes_Kidz. Reason: Powergaming, running around as bartender with at least 20 each of buckshot and inscindiary rounds on green alert with no threat to their person. Doesn’t seem to understand why this isn’t allowed. Also attempted to argue in essence “I’m just playing my character.” Well, if that’s your character then allow me to play the role of a Nanotrasen HR representative. We’re re-evaluating your employment contract. You’re still more than welcome to play on golden, where rule M2.2 is not applicable. You can appeal this when you understand that “But my character” is not an excuse for violating server rules.
So, throughout the ticket you were, we’ll just put it as, less than understanding of the situation. You consistently referenced other departments with regards to equipment that they get access to primarily through the course of their normal duties on the station. I can’t think of any better way than to explain it than this. If you have to go out of your way in your job to get something to kill other people with it’s probably against the rules without a good reason.
I’ll also point out that you changed your argument in the middle of it too, shifting from “But everyone else has it” and “It’s for self defense.” to “My character is just gun-happy.” What this tells me as an admin is that you’re grasping at straws trying to find a reasonable justification for what you were doing that got you into the hot water in the first place.
I want to say I greatly appreciate the admin transparency with the ticket logs, related report and all that jazz, it does help a lot to get a better grasp of the situation and I’ll withhold further third party opinion for the time being.
Someone else gets away with breaking the rule is never an excuse to break it
Newer players being allowed to make mistakes must happen and they’re given a chance to correct themselves.
Lucky happens because nobody reports them when they notice.
This last part is not true at all, it is an issue in both cases.
Permanent is a bit much, but I can see why it happened if there’s no willingness to follow what you’ve been told and play by the rules. Some departments have inherently more power at their disposal than others and it will always be that way. There are limits to what any department can do as a non-antagonists, and especially what they can do without a threat.
But at the end of it all, you are never allowed to seek items for self-defense until after there is a confirmed threat that directly affects you in your job. This means a red-alert level threat that puts the entire station at risk (nuclear operatives, wizard, clock cult endgame), or a threat made apparent directly to you or your department (an attempt is made directly on your life or someone is actively trying to break into/destroy your department).
Don’t permanent ban someone just because they’re bad at defending themselves.
What this poor man needs is a lawyer.
The issue I have with this is that I START with a shotgun, which I have for the express purpose of defending my bar and myself ‘just incase.’ Having lethals isn’t powergaming in of itself either… Or if it is, then why are there shotguns loaded with lethals as easily accessible maint loot for people with access to nab and hold onto, and why is it fine for other departments to get leeway in getting stuff like space adapt, toxins, etc, but not me, even though I have a license and good reason for the gun I have? This just has me asking so many questions, mostly why I’m being singled out and given such a severe punishment for something that really isn’t powergaming. I fulfill my responsibilities as a bartender, I just make some shells to defend myself and patrons, not flex my gamer muscles. If I wanted to do that, I’d go grab a hierophant club or something.
If you want me to say I’ll follow escalation rules and wait for a confirmed, serious threat to print them, I can do that. I was given the impression that just having a more powerful shell is powergaming in of itself, I didn’t fully understand what I was being punished for. And it’s not that I’m excusing myself because other people break the rules, it’s that it’s hard to know what’s right and wrong when you’re surrounded by that behavior, I really didn’t see an issue because just about every shift, I see an example of powergame that goes far beyond having slugs.
And yes it is, at least that I’ve been confronted for.
You start with non-lethals and no access to lethals. You start with a shotgun that contains beanbags for non-harmfully ending riots, not to shotgun people to death.
Yes it is and this applies to hoarding maints loot as well. Maints weapons are a terrible design decision for Sage and only benefits Golden. You are not supposed to run into maints roundstart to rush loot and players that do are powergaming.
Because that is an integral part of their departmental progression in most cases - Botanists are a problem when they do it. Toxins on the other hand is expected to make grenades and geneticists are expected to create mutations. As a bartender you do not have access to lethals without performing illegal activities. You are not entitled to them.
“Powergaming” is considered to be the act of prioritizing “winning” rather than sensible roleplaying. Good roleplaying means that you have to embrace the possibility of “losing” for the sake of roleplay and/or preserving immersion.
Do not seek/acquire items that have no relevance to your job without an appropriate IC reason.
You had to enter another department and hack their equipment to acquire your lethals. They are not part of your starting loadout at the bar. You sought to upgrade your non-lethal equipment for no reason during a green alert when times are calm and even security isn’t even allowed to carry lethals.
Then instead of assuming it’s fine to do, report it. We are no all seeing and certainly not constantly examining the inventories of players.
It seems like a really fickle line to walk. How will I know when lethals are justified? There are certainly times when those rules don’t apply, like if there’s a red-alert threat or mob invasion, are there guidelines for when a bartender can equip themselves with lethals that I can follow specifically? I want to know the objective reasons I might have so I can stay within the rules for my role, because I like being a bartender on Sage. I don’t want to leave it to subjective ruling because I’ll probably misjudge the situation at some point. False alarms happen.
Something which threatens the entire station is a threat to you directly. Someone comes at you in the bar with apparent intent to kill? You now have a reason to defend yourself, though you’re still completely at the mercy of IC consequences for owning weaponry you shouldn’t (And yes Security can, in fact take your gun if you are loaded with lethals)
Misjudging the situation will happen, just remember you’re a bartender that has a gun for self-defense and not a member of security. Similar to the detective (who is security), you are expected to avoid combat situations whenever possible, but have a gun to defend yourself when it becomes necessary to do so.
I’m going to take some time to reread the rules and maybe lurk on golden for a while. Thanks for your time, I don’t think there’s anything else I can add.
I have literally never once encountered cat surgeon in all the time ive played bartender so I think youre stretching the definition of the word common quite a bit.
I support keeping this RP ban as per the qualifier in the ban reason.
The entirety of this thread is the OP still attempting to justify that lethal rounds is not powergaming despite being sent copy pasted shots of the rules refuting this.
If you disagree with the rules, fine, but you still need to follow them. Flat out stating what you believe to be the rules contrary to what is written is just silly.
Upon receiving concurring opinions from other administrators the ban will remain until such time as stipulations in the ban message are met.
Appeal Denied
