Since this somewhat got derailed lets bring it back. I had some time to think about what Ruko said
I changed my idea from what i had earlier, Everything but the floor tile hazard for borgs I am for. I Also wish to suggest an addition to that, Ensure all upload door AI wires are cut, Silicon policy should have this handled but AI players should NOT be bolting the upload round start silicon policy wise. Admins need to enforce that more
Making AI harder to subvert really killed AI - Crew interactions.
Fun gimmicks are harder to set up, the increased difficulty makes people more prone to gaming and averse to new players. Access to law changes doesnt guarantee subversion anyway. There are many instances that players upload bad or ambiguous laws and AIs do not work with you.
If we want to make AI - Crew interactions fun (subjective), there needs to be leeway to for ai to act against conventional demands. Ambiguity in the laws, maybe even roundstart ion laws. Expansion of roundstart law roll pool.
Anything that a antagonist can abuse to persuade the AI to work in its favour.
I personally think we should corrupt complex lawsets and make it impossible to 100% subvert. Any lawset that a AI has that isnt core laws only will over time corrupt. Words, alphabets, numbers change over time and so their meaning. keeping things dynamic so antagonists can’t just sit around.
Theres a small change to make it easier if the consensus is to not revert the change to require a key.
Simply make freeform law board require no key to upload. (not the core board)
Reset board requires no key to upload.
Core laws still requires a key.
Purge board still requires a key
This would give people to apply level 15+ laws and still allow crew/antagonists to make it interesting and not overtly overpowered.
If the above is acceptable, i think it would be a good thing to add it high law modification to modular computers and allow crew to hack laws above level 15, add a option to pay credits to have the syndicate hack higher laws to make our credits relevant and it will allow normal scientists to reset laws incase of ion laws on low pop.
On another note i would like to say silicons are impactful and they need to be to be relevant. This is balanced by the fact that It is easy to take out silicons, there are extremely abusable weaknesses and specialised tools to work around silicons. Stop nerfing silicons and buy a signal jammer. A launchpad instantly kills AIs too, there literally is no counterplay.
Emag module exists by spending 20 points. Not in the way you interact with RD console.
Idea goes by limiting to the things that SoP encourages not to violate. Opening/closing doors are instant, bolting goes instant. Light switch instant, so forth and so on on trivial stuffs. Shocking doors, overriding timing safeties are not.
And yes, this keeps derailing off from the main topic. Enough with this pointing out.
I won’t lie - When there’s more than 8 laws going over, the whole silicons - Not just an AI - Begins to get dizzy what to follow. Especially when someone puts a kill order and law forbids/allows, but they kill/deny to the opposite of forbid/allowance.
While I like the idea on the key requirement change, I think freeform law is the one requiring the key, no doubt - One of the whole reason why the AI upload key got added in the first place because how common the subversion happened in the past. Purge, needs a key for sure. Some core laws shouldn’t be required though, listing as - Asi/Crewsimov, Corporate, Paladin, Robocop, Reset.
yeah, the point is to enable MORE options to subvert. This is a middle ground solution.
However i think you missed the point.
Law piority
0. Zeroth Law (Traitor/Malfunction Law)
@#$# An Ionic Law (Hacked Module)
@#!# An Ionic Law uploaded afterwards
Core Law
Core Law
Freeform Core Law
Freeform Core Law uploaded afterwards
Sector Law 4 (Safeguard)
Sector Law 6 (Prototype Engine Offline)
Sector Law 15 (Freeform)
AI laws have piority based on level. the non-core freeform module uploads laws at level 15 onwards and they do not supersede core laws which upload from 1 onwards. Im only talking about changing the highest level.
I think the main problem that I have with AI is that it can trivially easily hide in mainrs with an engiborg, and then on big stations there’s a very low chance of it being found. There should be some way to track an AI core.
And I’m asserting that common subversion is better than constant AI oppression. AI is supposed to be a neutral party, not a trustworthy one.
Constant subversion was the system working as intended, especially with the 20/20 hindsight vision I got after seeing the alternative.
I agree they’re a neutral party and be able to jump side right and left, like how tools are like. I’m simply saying how the system got added, while there were lot of AIs complaining they’re getting subverted every 3 minutes when there were uploading-fight going on, with one side being on the AI upload and another in the maintenance. They’re also a player who gets annoyed by the spam, if spam happens.
A engineer with mesons can easily find hidden places in maints, considering silicons cannot build Rwalls you can have a field day if you acquire a sonic jackhammer or advanced tools. It would take less than 5 minutes on most stations to sweep it.
Silicons have no counter play to physically delay people besides normal walls since their command level doors were removed from the borg RCD.
And even if they decide to hide in maints…
you can just shutdown APC power in each respective maints, and wire it to auto shutdown with signalers so the AI cannot reboot. There is no counter play for silicons if borgs are blown.
If you are being REALLY vindicative, you can just shutdown all APCs from CE’s office and slowly find it. If you coordinate with your engineers to see which APC auto reboots you instantly know where the AI is without leaving your office.
Most borgs have camera enabled on start, you can actually view them through the camera console. Considering you normally need a borg to bring a AI to maints and the ai might leave his shell nearby. You can easily find it and it just takes a single shell or borg to slip it up. There is barely any silicon counterplay to this.
AI cores can be tracked with a disk pin pointer during self destruct.
It actually takes a tremendous amount prepartion as a AI not be instantly steamrolled if any experienced player applies any of this.
It would probably be difficult considering how the AI uses cameras is different from consoles, but having active cameras look different than inactive ones could help. If you were observant you would know if you’ve been made or not.
I have said before that the AI upload should be a privileged zone for the AI. Borgs shouldn’t be able to enter it due to hardcoded restrictions sort of like swarmers can’t breach walls, and the turrets and doors should not be operable by the AI. Let it have cams in there so it can talk with the people inside, but that’s it.
I might make that PR actually. Fuck it. Let’s ball. Discuss it here:
if the wires are cut then part of roundstart prep for AI’s will be to hack into them. They need to actually be disabled entirely or it needs to be logged when they hack it for admins to throw logs at them.
Afaik it’s fine if AIs bolt down their sat and upload at the start? Now that you mention it that is a bit iffy. I’ll bring that up to the fellas™ later
I’m not sure if it’s logged or not if AIs actually hack a door with AI wires cut. and about the upload getting bolted shift start, the reason why It shouldn’t be allowed without a reason is
As far as I am concerned, those actions are not recommended, mentioned by multiple of admins in the past both been talked to me and some other AIs. Especially on certain AI law set, such as crewsimov. It extend as much as how AIs shouldn’t set the turrets to lethal round-start.
Something of ‘You can get it, but you shouldn’t on normal circumstances’ like warden having a lethal gun just because they have an armory access with an excuse of ‘in case of someone is in the armory.’
I do recall such actions can be accused as ‘powergaming.’
As how Rust has mentioned about the rule, with these examples applied and pre-existing rules, mending those wires can be seen as ‘powergaming,’ unless SoP states nothing about it - Something like how janitors got to repair the lightbulbs that were broken shift-start.
Is this the thread that got breaching slugs buffed?
None of this makes sense in a post-buffed breaching slugs world.
Reinforced walls may as well be tissue paper, and sec has access to unlimited breaching slugs roundstart.
It doesn’t, last I checked, and it’s a much more discreet way of handling it
LOVE analog stuff by all means but… this sounds unbearable.
How’s this going to fix things? What’s stopping them from grabbing a station bounced radio and basically just hiding in their sat all shift?
This I like to be honest, moreso than some of the nerf ideas and the suggestion of straight removal. Especially considering that the camera nerfs would basically spell the death of W4TCHR as a character, they’re an ai but that’s their whole thing: watching. An all-seeing eye above the station. That being said, the upload not having cameras or turrets feels like a given, of course the AI would try and shield that. I would even suggest making the doors unable to be used by the AI, much like the prisoner reeducation room/‘justice room’
This I’d argue is acceptable as well, I mean shit we could move pingsky from the ai sat to the upload and remove the turrets, that would be a good idea. Yeah, the sec bots are annoying but people deal with Armsky when they break in the armory and that’s a pretty common traitor target iirc, figured they’d deal with pingsky too. Added bonus: AI sat would be slightly less guarded as well with the loss of a security measure, even if that measure is essentially just a ‘please don’t enter’ sign.
That’s up to personal preference. Most playes on bee prefer convenience, but I think that having to actually think to obtain information is a lot more fun than what we currently have with the AI.
If im being 100% honest with you the analog satelite idea was just something that I thought would be interresting, but I dont think there’s any chance that would be actually implemented. It needs some polish work, idk exactly how tho. Maybe make bounced radios not work inside the sat, making him have to grab an EVA suit and walk into space, making him vulnerable to antagonists?
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